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alexmuir
12th August 2015, 02:25 PM
I have just acquired a 5x4 monorail camera with a lens and all necessary bits to get started. I have also picked up some HP5+ which is slightly out of date to practice with. I hope to get going this evening, assuming my tripod can handle it! I will no doubt be on by the weekend looking for advice from seasoned LF users.
Alex

Alan Clark
12th August 2015, 03:19 PM
Good luck with it Alex. How will you be developing the film?

Alan

Jakecb
12th August 2015, 03:44 PM
Have fun with your new camera :)

MartyNL
12th August 2015, 05:30 PM
Enjoy Alex. It's all about practice.

For the long term though, good film holders will be a solid investment together with a reliable and repeatable way of processing.

Michael
12th August 2015, 07:58 PM
Alex, I have a surplus of film holders and also film (though it's in the garage kitchen fridge and more easily checked tomorrow). Message me if you need either.

I've done almost no 5x4 lately, as I got rather hooked on 7x5.

SanMiguel
12th August 2015, 08:05 PM
Similar to yourself Alex I acquired a cheapish 4x5 monorail (Sinar) to see how I would like it. I put a few sheets through it and was mildly impressed. Then it sat on an old tripod I had for the best part of a year, making me feel guilty every time I passed it. The last few months however I have begun to feel more like using it and have started to lug it out and about again. Never too far from the car, for obvious reasons (it's heavy). But I am beginning to think it will take me in a new direction photographically-speaking, one which I will both learn a great deal from and also enjoy. When you know you are going to take only 2, perhaps 4 shots from an evening's work it really does focus the mind.

Michael

alexmuir
12th August 2015, 10:05 PM
Thanks for all the encouraging replies! I haven't decided yet on a processing method. I will start with tray development, but will need to acquire some form of tank. Any suggestions of what to use/avoid would be welcome.
Thanks also for the offer, Michael. I will PM you.
I made a couple of exposures this evening, and I'm certain I messed one up already. I'll try to develop them tomorrow to see how they turn out.
I'm planning on making contact prints initially as I don't have a suitable enlarger. The kit included 6x6 and 6x9 roll film backs which could be useful. I can enlarge those sizes, and it may be useful to practice with 120 film.
The lens is a Symmar 210 f5.6. It seems to be convertible, but I'm not certain how. It looks like you need to remove the rear element, and it becomes a longer focal length.
Alex

paulc
12th August 2015, 10:35 PM
will need to acquire some form of tank. Any suggestions of what to use/avoid would be welcome.

The lens is a Symmar 210 f5.6. It seems to be convertible, but I'm not certain how. It looks like you need to remove the rear element, and it becomes a longer focal length.

The four main options for tanks are:


Combiplan
Paterson Orbital
Jobo 2521 tank plus 2509 spiral or 3010 tank
Mod45 in a Paterson tank.


I own and use three of the above - The Combiplan is great for a dip'n'dunk line but gets messy if you use as it was intended, and some people have trouble draining/filling quickly. The Paterson orbital is good when you only want to do one to four sheets with the minimum of chemicals. The Jobo 2521+2509 can be fiddly to load, but works well either with a Jobo processor or as an inversion tank.

The 3010 tank and Mod45 I can't comment on. There are other methods such as the BTZS tubes and slosher trays - Each have their advocates and appear to work.


As for the Symmar lens - If it has a second f/stop scale in green, it is a convertible and you use it by removing the front cell.

alexmuir
12th August 2015, 10:56 PM
Thanks Paul. It's useful to know the pros and cons of the different systems. The orbital sounds like it may suit my needs.
Alex

paulc
13th August 2015, 12:41 AM
The orbital sounds like it may suit my needs.

Most people modify the Orbital for film processing. Dave Miller posted an article on the subject back in 2008: http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=119

I cut the fins off mine. But rather than using blobs of glue or scoring the base, I use a piece of mesh in the bottom. One thing I didn't mention in the earlier post - Both the Combiplan and Orbitals are no longer manufactured. As a consequence, the prices can get a bit silly on ebay.

RichardWarom
13th August 2015, 04:26 AM
Hi Alex
I have a complete BTZ tube set up with instructions that I no longer use as I use a Jobo set up now. These tubes work well but can be a little fiddly at first and need to be operated in the dark but if your interested it could be a cheaper alternative to other methods it can also be used for one film at a time, google it and and see what you think. In the meantime I wish you success with your new venture.
Richard

DaveP
13th August 2015, 06:24 AM
The jobo 2500 series with the 2509n reel are great, find an old CPE2 processor to use them on, otherwise the tanks need over a litre of juice for hand inversion. On a processor you can do 6 sheets in 250ml of chemicals.

Adrian Twiss
13th August 2015, 07:02 AM
I can also recommend the 2500 series tank/2509n combo. For some films it is better to use only 4 slots namely the innermost and outermost. I found this was the best way to develop Fomapan when using Pyrocat HD. Although considered by some to be an extravagance the loading base makes loading easy and repeatable.

Alan Clark
13th August 2015, 08:41 AM
You can also develop film in an open tray; a very cheap method to get started with. There are several variations on this. One is the shuffle method, where a stack of six or eight sheets of film are developed together by constantly shuffling them in the developer, in complete darkness, without scratching them. Anyone who can push a pea up Mount Everest with his nose, or can plait sand, will have no difficulty with the shuffle method. All I can say is that I tried it myself a couple of times and made a right mess of it.
Then there is the divided tray method, which I wrote about in the Articles section.
There is also the option of developing a single sheet at a time in an open tray. I must say this seems a very dependable and safe method, but can obviously take some time if you have a lot of film to develop. There is something attractively ritualistic about this method. I believe Maris uses it. It would be interesting to hear him comment on it.

Alan

DaveP
13th August 2015, 08:48 AM
I can also recommend the 2500 series tank/2509n combo. For some films it is better to use only 4 slots namely the innermost and outermost. I found this was the best way to develop Fomapan when using Pyrocat HD. Although considered by some to be an extravagance the loading base makes loading easy and repeatable.

I've never found loading to be a problem, in fact I find it easier than loading 120 or 135 onto jobo reels, or loading 135 onto a stainless spiral. Maybe that's just me and my big hands though!

I've always used the 2509n reel with 6 sheets in, for both colour E6 and also b&w (mainly using DDX) and not had a problem. i've never used Fomapan or Pyrocat but I got the impression a lot of the internet folklore about using only 4 slots was based on the older 2509 (no-"n") reels which didn't have to black baffles.

MartyNL
13th August 2015, 09:11 AM
And I use the Jobo 3010 drums together with a Beseler motor base. The cost of the tanks being the only real downside.

alexmuir
13th August 2015, 09:12 AM
Thanks for all the responses and advice. I am going to try the single sheet development in a tray this evening. The other methods are of interest as well. Thanks for the offer, Richard. I may take you up on that, but will start slowly at the moment to find my feet. I will be amazed if my film loading procedure hasn't already scratched the first sheets! I will let you know how I get on. Thanks again,
Alex

MartyNL
13th August 2015, 09:47 AM
I presume you already know which way around the emulsion side is when you load darkslides?

Just checking ;)

SanMiguel
13th August 2015, 09:49 AM
Just another processing suggestion. I use a Unicolor 8x10 paper drum with motorised base - both I had from the 70s when I was a teenager fumbling around in the darkroom. The motoised base still works perfectly. This takes 4 4x5 sheets at a time with a home-made spacer to keep the sheets separated. The paper drum has ridges along it so allows the chemicals to get to both sides of the film (unlike the Unicolor film drums).

If you find a good base the advantage is there are bigger print drums and multi-reel film drums (35mm & 120) around which are very economical with chemicals.

Not as cheap as trays of course but daylight so very easy (and probably a lot cheaper than Jobo).

Michael

Adrian Twiss
14th August 2015, 09:13 AM
I've never found loading to be a problem, in fact I find it easier than loading 120 or 135 onto jobo reels, or loading 135 onto a stainless spiral. Maybe that's just me and my big hands though!

I've always used the 2509n reel with 6 sheets in, for both colour E6 and also b&w (mainly using DDX) and not had a problem. i've never used Fomapan or Pyrocat but I got the impression a lot of the internet folklore about using only 4 slots was based on the older 2509 (no-"n") reels which didn't have to black baffles.

Now that is something I did not know. I suspect that my use of 4 slots was a belt and braces reaction to some processing problems that I encountered. I eventually solved these by use of distilled water when making up working solutions, a very small amount of wetting agent in the developer and going from 6 slots to 4. It may have been that the reduction in the number of slots I used was not significant.

richardw
14th August 2015, 12:11 PM
The Paterson Orbital is a very reliable, clean and versatile method of developing sheet film. It combines the best of tray processing with the convenience of daylight processing. To get the best monochrome results consistently it requires some small modifications and agitation carried out as per tray processing rather than using the orbital method. For stand development you use 500ml of working solution...

Here's how I modified mine and a short version of how I use it.

http://freepdfhosting.com/f640343f29.pdf

richard

Martin Aislabie
14th August 2015, 07:39 PM
I use the Mod54 system to process film.

Straight forward and you can do up to 6 Negs at a time.

You just have to remember to put the emulsion side facing inwards.

Ilford, on their film data sheets have a nice picture to show you which way the notches go to indicate the emulsion film side - http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2010712125850702.pdf

I still visualise the picture when handling film.

There are some good YouTube has some good videos to show you how to load Darkslides.

Martin

Lostlabours
15th August 2015, 07:38 AM
There's also the Jobo 2000 series there's tanks that take one or two reels each holding 6 sheets of 5x4 film. I've had my first for nearly 40 years, thet are Inversion tanks and predate Hobo's rotary processors.

I also have a Dallan Stainless stee 5x4 tank and a Yankee tank, the later is useful as it adjusts for 9x12 and quarter plate ass well, both formats I use.

Ian

alexmuir
16th August 2015, 12:52 PM
Thanks to everyone for all your advice. Thanks also to Michael for some very generous assistance. I have tried tray processing and found it to be a usable method, but quite difficult unless you have a spacious area to lay out the trays, and the ability to sit down during the main operations. My own darkroom is a bit small for that. I've settled on an Orbital, and managed to find one. Having made three successful negatives,a and contact prints, I have to say that I'm hooked! I am already deciding which 35mm and MF gear I can get rid of.
Alex

richardw
16th August 2015, 06:28 PM
Thanks to everyone for all your advice. Thanks also to Michael for some very generous assistance. I have tried tray processing and found it to be a usable method, but quite difficult unless you have a spacious area to lay out the trays, and the ability to sit down during the main operations. My own darkroom is a bit small for that. I've settled on an Orbital, and managed to find one. Having made three successful negatives,a and contact prints, I have to say that I'm hooked! I am already deciding which 35mm and MF gear I can get rid of.
Alex

Don't get rid of anything! Each format has its perfect niche... Well done on the successful contact prints.

:)
richard

Domingo
24th August 2015, 12:53 PM
[...]
I will start with tray development, but will need to acquire some form of tank. Any suggestions of what to use/avoid would be welcome.
[...]


Combiplan is my choice and I'm very happy with it. The only "but..." I can think about it is that you'll need about 30 sec. to fill and a bit less to empty the tank - this will condition your process if you like short times with the developer.

LF is a wonderful world.

alexmuir
24th August 2015, 01:12 PM
Thanks, Domingo. I managed to find an orbital. Anxious to get underway, I used it on Friday, before I had read a lot of the useful information in previous threads. I developed some film with about 65ml of ID11 stock. I thought the little cups that came with it were a suitable volume to process the four sheets! I assume they were sufficient for colour prints. I have since followed the good advice of another forum member by reading the archive material, and think I have a better idea of what to do. I'm thinking that about 600-700 ml of solution, developer and dilution to be decided, should adequately cover the film, and allow for proper movement of chemistry.
Alex

Michael
24th August 2015, 01:48 PM
I use 360 ml, Alex. A couple of 2 minute pre-washes will get rid of the anti-halation layer (if you find traces at the end of the process, they can be rinsed off, of course).

alexmuir
24th August 2015, 06:18 PM
Thanks, Michael. Did you add the clear plastic domes on the base? Also, do you use the orbital base unit, or simply sit the tank on the bench and rock it like a tray? Thanks in advance,
Alex

Michael
24th August 2015, 07:17 PM
Alex - Yes, I used the domes and have never regretted that. I'll photograph my arrangement in the morning and e-mail it to you. For pre-soak, dev, stop and fix I just set the tank on the work surface and agitate manually, rather as Trevor Crone outlined in the earlier thread. I was lucky to get a motorised base a few years ago and I do the washing steps with that.

Don't use the red pegs for film: there are various other options on the thread. My own, for what it's worth, is to use the shanks from Johnson's cotton buds cut to length. I haven't had one slip out yet. The red pegs are too short and film can hop out from under.

alexmuir
24th August 2015, 07:40 PM
Thanks again, Michael. I only have two of the red pegs, so had used your suggestion of cotton bud shafts. I may cut them longer to prevent the possibility of the film moving around too much. A photo of your set-up would be most useful.
Alex.

paulc
24th August 2015, 11:06 PM
I developed some film with about 65ml of ID11 stock.

I'm thinking that about 600-700 ml of solution, developer and dilution to be decided, should adequately cover the film, and allow for proper movement of chemistry.

You need to be careful when using small amounts of chemistry - You need 25ml of ID11/D76 per sheet of film in order to avoid exhausting the developer before the film is developed fully. You may also find that the film suffers from uneven development if insufficient chemistry is used. 400ml of ID11/D76 at 1+3 works quite well and for Pyro, I usually use around 300ml of working solution.

On a motorised base, you need to be wary of using too much liquid as the motor can get overloaded. If you tip too much in, you will also find some of the solution will slosh out of the tray.

One final tip - I use some short M3 stainless steel screws in place of the pegs.

alexmuir
25th August 2015, 12:37 PM
Thanks, Paul. That is helpful. The tank came with the non-motor base, but I'm just going to sit it flat on the work surface with simple hand agitation. It was amazing, to me anyway, that 65ml of developer actually worked for four sheets, but I will be using more in future.
Alex.