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Keith Tapscott.
5th July 2009, 12:57 PM
Where can I buy a box of this paper? It will be used for making contact prints from 8"x10" negatives.

Trevor Crone
5th July 2009, 06:25 PM
http://store.michaelandpaula.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&zenid=fvovpknhlsgts1itj944b983s1

Go for it Keith, it really is beautiful paper.

I just hope he goes ahead with the production so I can finish a project I recently started. I'm printing all of the work on this paper. I bought a box of 100 sheets from the pre-production run. It was marketed as grade 2 but is in fact grade 3, so it's a little hard at times but responds well to water bath treatment.

Needless to say I've pre-ordered a few boxes at both grades 2 & 3.

Keith Tapscott.
5th July 2009, 07:19 PM
http://store.michaelandpaula.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&zenid=fvovpknhlsgts1itj944b983s1

Go for it Keith, it really is beautiful paper.

I just hope he goes ahead with the production so I can finish a project I recently started. I'm printing all of the work on this paper. I bought a box of 100 sheets from the pre-production run. It was marketed as grade 2 but is in fact grade 3, so it's a little hard at times but responds well to water bath treatment.

Needless to say I've pre-ordered a few boxes at both grades 2 & 3.On the link you posted, it mentioned something about being available around the early fall. I was hoping that Silverprint or Retrophotographic might have ordered some of this paper. It`s rather expensive, but it looks like I will just have to place my order for 8x10 grade 2 and play the waiting game.:D

Thanks for the link Trevor.

Trevor Crone
5th July 2009, 07:45 PM
I think he needs a certain number of pre-orders for it to be viable.

Silverprint and Retro have so far given no indication that they will stock it.

I believe for European orders it will ship from Europe so this will help save on carriage costs.

Keith Tapscott.
6th July 2009, 08:17 AM
I think he needs a certain number of pre-orders for it to be viable.

Silverprint and Retro have so far given no indication that they will stock it.

I believe for European orders it will ship from Europe so this will help save on carriage costs.
Out of curiosity, do you know which manufacturer makes Lodima and would it be possible to order direct from them?

Trevor Crone
6th July 2009, 11:10 AM
As far as I know Michael A. Smith has not published the European manufacturer of Lodima.

At present Lodima is only available from Michael and Paula's website.

Rob Archer
6th July 2009, 05:27 PM
I understand this paper is intended for contact printing, but having seen some of the results Ifancy giving it a g for enlarging. Is that feasible, of would the exposure times be ridiculously long?

Rob

Trevor Crone
6th July 2009, 11:04 PM
I understand this paper is intended for contact printing, but having seen some of the results Ifancy giving it a g for enlarging. Is that feasible, of would the exposure times be ridiculously long?

Rob

Rob, I did try my MG enlarger head as a light source (300W) for contact printing (8x10) and an image was just noticable after a 1 minute exposure time. I thought this method would end up being too long and would cause my enlarger head to over heat. So I think to enlarge on this paper times would be very long indeed.

For contact printing I use an oversize 60 watt lamp at a distance of 8" and the exposure times are on average between 20, 25 seconds.

Paul Owen
27th July 2009, 02:44 PM
I've had an email from Michael telling me that he will be putting an order in fro Lodima in next week or so. He has managed to secure a smaller order than the manufacturer initially wanted and the prices look like this:

Size and Quantity Current price Price after August 7
8x10-100 $139.95 $149.95
8x10-250 $324.95 $349.95
9x11-100 $174.95 $189.95
10x12-100 $209.95 $224.95
11x14-100 $269.96 $289.95
8x10-100 $279.95 $299.95
14x17-50 $254.95 $274.95
16x20-50 $279.95 $299.95
20x24-50 $419.94 $449.95
Rolls 60cm x 25m $409.95 $439.95

I wonder if anyone is interested in a group order?
Michael has agreed that if we palce an order he will package it individually for each of us and then ship it in one box.

Anyone?

Barry
27th July 2009, 02:49 PM
Paul,

I would be interested in trying this paper. What size(s) did you have in mind?

Martin Reed
28th July 2009, 03:41 PM
I think he needs a certain number of pre-orders for it to be viable.
Silverprint and Retro have so far given no indication that they will stock it.......

Have expressed an interest in stocking it, to which Michael replied positively. He said he will make an announcement regarding distribution soon.

B&W Neil
28th July 2009, 03:58 PM
Martin,
I too look forward to hearing more about this. Many thanks for the information to date.

Neil.

Paul Owen
28th July 2009, 05:16 PM
It might be an idea to hang fire on a bulk order and order from Silverprint?

Trevor Crone
28th July 2009, 05:17 PM
Have expressed an interest in stocking it, to which Michael replied positively. He said he will make an announcement regarding distribution soon.

Nice one:) I've already placed an order for some more but it would be much easier and quicker for me to purchase any future supplies from you. It really is a lovely paper but expensive.

Barry
28th July 2009, 07:04 PM
It might be an idea to hang fire on a bulk order and order from Silverprint?

Yes indeed, thanks Martin :D

Mike O'Pray
28th July 2009, 07:44 PM
This is like a GCSE science schoolboy butting in with a question during a PhD discussion :D: but what is different between using contact paper like Lodima and using normal paper such as Ilford FB paper for enlarging prints from negs.

Thanks

Mike

Trevor Crone
28th July 2009, 08:19 PM
This is like a GCSE science schoolboy butting in with a question during a PhD discussion :D: but what is different between using contact paper like Lodima and using normal paper such as Ilford FB paper for enlarging prints from negs.

Thanks

Mike

Mike, on the plus side I would say a silver chloride paper has a much longer tonal range then a bromide/chlorobromide paper. It is surprising for example, how, what would be considered a 'difficult' negative, prints easier on a paper with a silver chloride emulsion. They also seem to have a finer grain then enlarging papers and tend to tone (colour shift) more readily in toners such as selenium.

Papers like Lodima are less sensitive to light so are not normally used for projection printing as the printing time would probably run into several minutes. For example, with my own trials, I tend to get exposure times of around 20-25 seconds under a 60 watt light bulb at a distance of about 8".

Martin Reed
29th July 2009, 06:58 AM
....They also seem to have a finer grain then enlarging papers and tend to tone (colour shift) more readily in toners such as selenium....

Potentially also should split tone very precisely, Olivia Parker used Kodak Azo to great effect with this.

http://oliviaparker.com/gallery.php?id=18

Trevor Crone
29th July 2009, 07:25 AM
Potentially also should split tone very precisely, Olivia Parker used Kodak Azo to great effect with this.

http://oliviaparker.com/gallery.php?id=18

I'm a big fan of her work. Sadly it was the old Azo that gave the best split. Lodima apparently does not split as well. I believe Michael has mentioned this some where in his website.

PS. I was a big fan of her but just read that she has gone digital and prints with a .......... Epson. I bet those inkjets split tone well!?%$*

Trevor Crone
29th July 2009, 12:05 PM
This may be of interest to those asking/thinking about projection printing on Lodima:

http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum/one.asp?ID=11743&PgNo=&GID=11743&CID=13

Mike O'Pray
29th July 2009, 01:33 PM
This may be of interest to those asking/thinking about projection printing on Lodima:

http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum/one.asp?ID=11743&PgNo=&GID=11743&CID=13

Trevor Thanks for that link which I think answers the question I was going to ask about why a 100W enlarger couldn't expose a neg onto say 8x10 Lodima in quite a bit less time than a 60W bulb contact print at 8 feet instead of the 4 mins quoted in the link for a projected print. It's a bigger bulb and at a much smaller distance, say, 2 feet.

It has answered the question by making me think and I come up with the inverse square law answer. The neg in the enlarger is a long way from the print(2 feet) instead of right next to it in the contact prints so the light travel is vastly greater.

On the other hand in a contact print of 36 x 35mm negs, my contact exposure time is not much different from one neg in the carrier which is projected onto paper 2 feet away as opposed to be sandwiched against the 36 negs. So maybe it all down to the speed of the Lodima paper?

I am confused. What's the explanation? Thanks

Mike

Trevor Crone
29th July 2009, 04:13 PM
Mike, silver chloride contact papers like Lodima are incredibly slow compared to papers designed for enlarging.

Mike O'Pray
29th July 2009, 05:51 PM
Thanks Trevor. Can you also help me to improve my reading of posts as well?. I have just realised that your 60W lamp is 8 inches( two apostrophies there, not one) away NOT 8 feet which might have lead me to the slowness of the paper as the real reason :D:

Mike

Trevor Crone
29th July 2009, 08:14 PM
Mike, I over looked your mention of 8 feet instead of 8 inches otherwise I would have pointed that out.;)

Martin Reed
29th July 2009, 10:40 PM
It's not impossible to projection print onto contact speed paper - back in the 70's when there was a lot of cheap document & technical material around and I had no money I tried all of these, expect maybe a 20 minute exposure with full aperture. But then you will also probably run into reciprocity failure effects, with an exposure this long, so you'll have to burn in for another stop in the corners...it's not what the material is made for.

Keith Tapscott.
11th August 2009, 06:40 PM
Rob, I did try my MG enlarger head as a light source (300W) for contact printing (8x10) and an image was just noticable after a 1 minute exposure time. I thought this method would end up being too long and would cause my enlarger head to over heat. So I think to enlarge on this paper times would be very long indeed.

For contact printing I use an oversize 60 watt lamp at a distance of 8" and the exposure times are on average between 20, 25 seconds.
Trevor, I have placed an order for 100 sheets of 8x10 grade 2 Lodima. Which lamp is it you are using and do you hold or move this above the negative and paper?
Also, does the Lodima manufacturer provide any specific instructions about how to process this particular paper?

Trevor Crone
11th August 2009, 08:01 PM
Keith, I find these (http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1102/95mm-globe-60w-bc-opal/) lamps (also with ES fitting and other wattage) very good in providing a very even illumination. Especially as my set up places the lamp just 8" from the paper. The further the lamp is from the paper the more even the illumination will be (within reason). You have to balance this with reasonable exposure times. With this lamp and distance my negatives give me an average exposure of 20-25 seconds.

The pre-production paper I got didn't have any information whatsoever, but there is a fair bit here (http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/newpaper.html). Look under 'writings'. And here (http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum/default.asp?BulletinCate=13)

PS. The lamp is fixed above the neg+paper.

Keith Tapscott.
11th August 2009, 08:17 PM
Keith, I find these (http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/product/1102/95mm-globe-60w-bc-opal/) lamps (also with ES fitting and other wattage) very good in providing a very even illumination. Especially as my set up places the lamp just 8" from the paper. The further the lamp is from the paper the more even the illumination will be (within reason). You have to balance this with reasonable exposure times. With this lamp and distance my negatives give me an average exposure of 20-25 seconds.

The pre-production paper I got didn't have any information whatsoever, but there is a fair bit here (http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/newpaper.html). Look under 'writings'.

PS. The lamp is fixed above the neg+paper.Thanks for the link Trevor. I also have a contact-printing frame on the way. Is the bulb in a desk/table-lamp or similar and do you simply time it using the on/off switch?

Trevor Crone
11th August 2009, 11:05 PM
Keith, the lamp is in a purpose built light box which I originally built for Pt/Pd printing using UV lamps. I remove the UV lamps and add the bulb I linked to. It is just in an ordinary bayonet cap lamp holder which is screwed to the top of the cupboard. I've connected it to an enlarger timer made by Viponel which I bought on Ebay. That way I'm assured of accurate and repeatable timing.

It is best to have the lamp suspended/fixed above the contact printing frame to ensure the lamp is central and illumination is as even as possible. If you have a spot meter this is easy to check. Or do a 'grey flash', that is expose a sheet of paper until you just get a light to mid-grey tone, any uneveness of illumination is very appparent. Knowing where any uneveness is, usually the corners, is just a case of 'burning in' to even out the tones.

Some people place a piece of opal glass/plastic between the lamp and printing frame, which is said to help even out the illumination. I've not tried this so can't say from personal experience.

Keith Tapscott.
12th August 2009, 05:36 PM
I know where there is a Marrutt CP450 Contact-Printer for sale as mentioned in ILFORD MONOCHROME DARKROOM PRACTICE by Jack H Coote on page 151, but I don`t know much about them.

Mark-NY
26th September 2009, 11:30 AM
Posts yesterday on other film sites by M. Smith say that this paper has been coated. It will be shipped at some point after it hardens and is cut. Perhaps of interest to many on this forum: The factory is in Europe and there was some possibility of shipping direct to European buyers initially but not out of stock which would presumably be kept in the US. So if it turns out to be less expensive to ship directly one might want to order at this point. I think the determining factor somehow concerns the VAT if shipped from Europe.

Also some sizes are only available initially and will not be stocked.

One unrelated question: for 8x10 contact prints, what are the pros/cons/issues around printing on 9x11 versus 8x10 paper?

Thanks, Mark

Trevor Crone
26th September 2009, 11:50 AM
Posts yesterday on other film sites by M. Smith say that this paper has been coated. It will be shipped at some point after it hardens and is cut. Perhaps of interest to many on this forum: The factory is in Europe and there was some possibility of shipping direct to European buyers initially but not out of stock which would presumably be kept in the US. So if it turns out to be less expensive to ship directly one might want to order at this point. I think the determining factor somehow concerns the VAT if shipped from Europe.

Also some sizes are only available initially and will not be stocked.

One unrelated question: for 8x10 contact prints, what are the pros/cons/issues around printing on 9x11 versus 8x10 paper?

Thanks, Mark

Thanks for the update Mark. I do hope it isn't too long before its shipped as my batch of Lodima has almost gone :mad:

FWIW I've preordered some 9x11 mainly for the reason that the paper from the intial run suffered from severe paper curl that it was a real pain to square it up with the negative. Also bits of the emulsion would often came away near the edges with constant handerling. So I thought the larger size would solve these issue should they still become a problem. Although Michael did say these issue will be rectified with this batch of paper. Lets hope so.

Mark-NY
26th September 2009, 12:22 PM
Thanks Trevor -- quite good to know.

Aesthetically -- I was talking with a friend who used to be a fine art photographer but did not contact print. He always wanted a border around prints as he did not like to see the paper edge when mounted. We considered this choice as it related to 8x10 contact prints and came up with the idea of creating mat with an 8x10 cut out -- the negative would be placed in the cut out and the paper on top and then exposed. This would keep the white border around the print; however, the black edge of the negative would be seen.

All personal preference, but I thought this might be interesting and work for some prints. It could always be cut away or overmated. Not sure of the practicalities of printing this way, though -- and the 9x11 paper is 50 USD more per box than the 8x10.

Trevor Crone
26th September 2009, 01:07 PM
Yes, the increase in price of the 9x11 size is a bit of a downer.

I have started to trim off the black rebate of the print and remount it on Fabriano 5 paper. This is a nice white with smooth textured paper which for me offsets the warmth of the print quite nicely and can then be overmatted to leave a white boarder around the print if required.

Mark-NY
28th September 2009, 10:43 AM
Posted on the Azo Forum (http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum/) this morning...
__________________________________________________ ___________
Last call for certain sizes
Posted by: Michael A. Smith Posted at: 2:09:24 AM PT, 9/28/2009
Last call for certain sizes:

Boxes are being ordered in 24 hours. We will not be stocking the following
sizes, so if you want to order them, you have 24 hours to do so.

9x11, 10x12, 8x20, 16x20.

We will stock these sizes: 8x10, 11x14, 20x24.

Michael A. Smith

MichaelSmith
11th October 2009, 12:01 PM
Trevor Crone alerted me to this forum and to this thread. I am happy to answer any questions anyone may have about Lodima paper, or about anything else photographic that I may know something about. If someone would like me to comment on something, please alert me by email to the thread at issue, as I will not be able to frequently check the forum.

Lodima Fine Art silver chloride paper is as beautiful, or even more so, than we (we includes my wife, Paula Chamlee, who is also a photographer) could have hoped. It took five years of hard work to make it happen.

Right now the paper is available only from us at www.michaelandpaula.com (http://www.michaelandpaula.com). We did receive an inquiry from Martin Reed at SilverPrint about carrying the paper, and we are not opposed to that. But because the paper is so expensive to produce, and because our R&D costs have been so high, and because we have tried to keep the cost of the paper as low as possible so that we don't go too far under, we explained to Martin that we were unable to offer him a discount. We suggested that if he purchased a relatively large stock that we could ship it to him from an EU country, saving some of the shipping cost. We did not hear back from Martin, which is understandable. NO hard feeling there on our part, and we hope there are none from him toward us.

We had hoped to ship paper to EU countries from an EU country. The shipper we found told us that he needed to add VAT. That combined with the shipping costs in Euros, when converted into US Dollars, came to a significantly higher amount than if we shipped the paper from the USA, so we will be shipping the paper from the USA. The customer is responsible for loss or damage, but so far, in all of our years of sending hundreds of orders of AZO paper and books--we also publish books under the Lodima Press imprint--(www.lodimapress.com (http://www.lodimapress.com)), we have never had a package lost of damaged.

If anyone has any questions about our new paper, go here first http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/newpaper.html, and if questions still remain, do let me know. As those who have dealt with me and Paula in the past know, we are always try to be as helpful as we can.

Best regards to all,

Michael A. Smith

Trevor Crone
11th October 2009, 07:00 PM
Good to have you on board Michael not just for your expertise on Lodima paper but in the wider field of fine art photography.

I must make a public apology to you for something I said in an earlier post about there not being any information included with Lodima paper. This was an over sight on my part when in fact there was an information sheet included with my box of paper. I promptly mislayed it and forgot that it was there:o The ageing process is not being too kind to the old grey matter:(