RA4 printing with Tetenal - A warning!

[John King]

I have recently had to change my RA4 baths in my Nova processor because of under replenishment. The replenishment rates were not given in my 5 litre kit so on advice from Tetenal they advised me about 10cc per 10x8 print would be adequate - WRONG!

Since then the company has undergone changes and the new RA4 kits are different. That 10cc replenishment may have been OK for the old previous formula, but that has now been changed to make it odourless.

The instructions in the new kit I am using states that a 5 litre kit will be sufficient to print approx. 230 10 x 8 prints which equates to a replenishment rate of slightly over 20cc per print, a significant difference. This also applies to the bleach fix as well.

With this increase in replenishment volume makes the Tetenal kit which was already pro rata, roughly twice the price of the Kodak Ektacolour RA4 20 litre developer and Blix 20 litre bought separately. Now double the price again because the replenishment rate for the Kodak is still 10cc per each 10x8 sheet of paper.

Once this Tetenal kit is finished I am going back to Kodak.

[photomi7ch]

Thanks for the update.

[Mike O'Pray]

I wonder if this is connected to the "death and phoenix like revival of Tetenal? I have difficulty keeping up with all the posts that a thread about this on Photrio resulted in but it would seem that Tetenal has changed a few chemicals since it revival and if I recall correctly it made chemicals for Kodak where HC110 for one underwent changes

If this is the case then key to this might be whether Kodak RA4 chemicals will have to change

Despite the so-called revival in film that we are allegedly in the middle of, there does still seem to be worrying signs

Mike

[John King]

According to the last bottles of Kodak RA4 Ektacolor the place of manufacture was China. Tetenal did not have a hand in it, nor do I think they will.

As it happens I much prefer Ektacolor rather than Tetenal as it seems to be far more stable and of course economic in use. By my rough calculations comparing the average cost of 4 x 5 litre kits of Tetenal with 20 litres of developer and blix from Kodak, then factor in you need only half the quantity to replenish, that works out around 4 times cheaper. It is a no brainer really.

[John King]

I had forgotten about this post but now I am back using the Kodak RA4 I can say the odour from the Kodak version is a lot less than it used to be. Not quite odour free, but still less.

I have the filtration adjusted to my requirements for the Kodak RA4 and only have to change this if I increase or decrease the exposure of the paper. It is so very much more stable.

Also with the Kodak chemicals. I get much cleaner whites therefore an apparent increase in contrast.

[John King]

It is not very often that I am stumped for an answer with every day colour negative developing. For past few C41 films I have developed, at odd intervals there has been uneven developing on the edges between frames. On a 36 exp film I would think there would be nor more than 3-4 frames affected.

It is always on the leading edge of the film, i.e. the edge nearest to the take up spool when it is in the camera. How it shows is when the film is scanned, the positive shown on the screen after scanning has a feathered edge starting as dense as the space between each frame but rapidly getting less obvious over 2-3mm where it just fades to the rest of the normally exposed frame.

It isn't the scanner either because it is visible on the film if held up to the light.

It cannot be shutter bounce because it is a vertical travel shutter and in any case the effect would be the opposite. I first noticed this on one of my Minolta slr's (horizontal shutter operation) and latterly on two of my Nikons. Nor does it happen with black and white film which I always process using the inversion method.

The film is developed using a JOBO rotary processor, but if this were the cause of the problem why are only just a small fraction of the frames affected.

If you can suggest a solution I would love you to share it.

[Mike O'Pray]

John I am clueless but just so I can be clear what have the past few C41 films been? Is it always the same or nearly the same 3-4 frames on each and so far none of the films have been free of this

Is it 35mm only? Unless something is happening to those frames on the same area on the developing reel or reels if you use different tanks and reels then I am unsure how to separate a developing problem from a manufacturing problem.

However the answers to some of my questions might be pointers towards certain causes

On a practical level will these feathered edges show on the prints?

Thanks

Mike

[John King]

Hi Mike. No it is perfectly random not the same frame every time. I don't know about any other size than 35mm but it is only colour never on B&W.

I have hopefully managed to get one where it is a bit more obvious. Ignore the lighter area in the sky that was my deliberate doing to emphasise the problem. The black strips at either end are the film frame gaps.

[John King]

I think I may have found the answer.

I printed one of the negatives affected in the darkroom and there was no sign of any edge problem involving discolouration. As much as I hope not, it looks as if it is my Nikon Scanner This will account for it being random and only on the shorter edge which is the lead edge as it goes into the scanner.

Oh well it is 17 years old so it has had a good life.

[Mike O'Pray]

That's looks to be the answer. It is amazing how often on another forum where hybrid processing is the king that scanning or scanners turn out to be the problem

I suspect that in the new world of hybrid any scanner 17 years old would produces the sentiment that it deserves to be in the British Museum as part of the "early industrialisation artefacts" :D


Mike

[John King]

Mike I think it is now confirmed the scanner is the problem.

I used my flatbed scanner and passed two strips of negatives through which contained ones that had previously been scanned through in the Nikon and showed the dark 'smears' and they were all clear.

[John King]

As I said in my last post I thought it was the scanner - well I now know it isn't the scanner

I have been printing a colour this evening from another negative on the same film where I first saw the problem when scanned in the Nikon scanner the brown stain like a smear of paint was on that edge and along the top edge were very faint but discernible light brown best described as 'blobs. The print was about A4 size on a 10x12 piece of paper. These 'blobs. directly corresponded exactly with the sprocket holes on the edge of the film!

The film Fuji C200 developed in the last of my Tetenal in a JOBO processor for the prescribed times including the bleach and fix, all at 38C

Was it in the developing stage these were formed - I don't think so because they are no where else. Were they in the bleach or the fix? My money is on the bleach, although to be honest has not had a lot of throughput since it was mixed. (About 4 films processed in 500cc of bleach) I have never had this before so it is head scratching time for me.

I have never had bleach go stale on me before and it certainly doesn't smell of Hydrogen Sulphide (bad eggs) which I do know can happen.

Any thoughts please.

[EdmundH]

John, Is it something like the sky in this picture? (sorry for the poor image, the print was fixed up in my office, and I used my phone to get this)

I've only had it happen with one film, a roll of Kodak Proimage 100 which was processed in Bellini C41 chemicals. I assumed it was the colour equivalent of Bromide drag caused by poor agitation technique.

Edmund

[John King]

No it isn't like that at all. I will try to explain. After processing, the spaces between each frame are clear film (apart from the orange mask.) But when they are scanned the edges which are clear on the film, naturally appear black which is normal but on a number of frames on this film 'bleed' into the subject matter on the frame itself.

I have looked at the them clearly and you cannot see this without printing of scanning. Then on a print I made last night there are dark 'blobs', very faint but definitely there which correspond to the sprocket holes on the edge of the film. You can see the 'blobs' above each of the towers and all along the top edge. The top right hand corner is also discoloured but this vanishes when the print becomes darker in the bush,.

The discolouration is very light and only significant in light areas, but it is not right and should not happen. I have spoken to Tetenal today and they have never come across it either.