PDA

View Full Version : Photographers Place is back!


CarlRadford
10th January 2010, 05:58 PM
http://photographersplace.co.uk/

Barry
10th January 2010, 06:44 PM
http://photographersplace.co.uk/

That's great news Carl thanks.

Mike O'Pray
10th January 2010, 07:28 PM
Carl I had a quick look but other than its history and the fact that there is a landscape workshop on a weekend in April there was really little other content.

Will it cater for analogue photographers, I wonder? It said that there will be a critique for the photos taken on the landscape week-end and while this is still possible with a film based medium in the time frame of a weekend, it just struck me that this might allude to the fact that the participants are expected to have digital cameras allowing downloading and printing or projection in the time frame available.

Mike

CarlRadford
10th January 2010, 08:17 PM
All I can say is that the plan appears to be that they will run a full range of courses as they used too.

Mike O'Pray
10th January 2010, 08:42 PM
All I can say is that the plan appears to be that they will run a full range of courses as they used too.

Sounds like good news, Carl, and not a million miles away from where I live in. Again it doesn't say exactly where it is, other than the Peak District which is pretty big! The landscape course is Ilam Hall but I didn't get the impression that its headquarters was there.

Presumably the former location wherever that was, is still its location and all the old analogue facilities( darkroom, enlargers etc) are still there or can be re-installed.

Maybe it will persuade instructors like Les McLean and Tim Rudman to offer courses there.

The possibilities are endless. Let's hope that the plan you mention above can be executed.

Thanks

Mike

Martin Reed
15th January 2010, 02:24 PM
......Presumably the former location wherever that was, is still its location and all the old analogue facilities( darkroom, enlargers etc) are still there or can be re-installed.....

No need for the plural, the darkroom facilities at the original PP were spartan in the extreme, it was geared up for dev+contact for the group, but there was no teaching darkroom. But that wasn't really the aim of the place.

It's a rather unrevealing release, perhaps we can request a little more background to the new incarnation? If FADU had some more information it's in a good position to help the relaunch, and we would certainly do our bit at Silverprint.

Dave miller
15th January 2010, 02:46 PM
No need for the plural, the darkroom facilities at the original PP were spartan in the extreme, it was geared up for dev+contact for the group, but there was no teaching darkroom. But that wasn't really the aim of the place.

It's a rather unrevealing release, perhaps we can request a little more background to the new incarnation? If FADU had some more information it's in a good position to help the relaunch, and we would certainly do our bit at Silverprint.

I emailed a few days ago for information with that intent, so far no reply.

Dave miller
15th January 2010, 02:48 PM
I just checked the sight again and found the following post:

Thanks to everyone for their best wishes and requests for more information. Final details will be released tomorrow evening (Friday 15th Jan). Will email everyone and post here.

So, stand by.

Dave miller
16th January 2010, 07:16 AM
Well what a shame, it started so well, I read as far as:

"opportunity to see samples of work from the group members. You are invited to bring along 2 or 3 of your own edited digital photographs as jpeg files on a memory stick to be shown on a data projector."

then nodded off.;)

Roy_H
16th January 2010, 08:11 AM
The Photographer's Place was always about photography, it mattered little what equipment and materials one used.

If they manage to recapture some of the spirit of those early days – doubtful perhaps, as we all felt like pioneers of a new age of 'real' photography – then the weekend would be worth it. You often learned as much from the other participants as you did from the tutors and I would be interested to see what kind of folk turned up to attend this reincarnation.

There's every reason to hope that a successful relaunch on the back of digital could lead to courses that cater for specialist interests - like ours ;). The (very) few places that still offer traditional photography courses are always fully booked after all.

An opportunity to spend time in the company of Paul Hill should always be considered a valuable one. I'm reasonably sure that he would not be talking pixels...

mshakeshaft
16th January 2010, 11:23 AM
Well what a shame, it started so well, I read as far as:

"opportunity to see samples of work from the group members. You are invited to bring along 2 or 3 of your own edited digital photographs as jpeg files on a memory stick to be shown on a data projector."

then nodded off.;)




Hi Dave

Let me introduce myself I am Martin Shakeshaft, who with Paul Hill and Nick Lockett has re launched the Photographers Place.

In light of your comments about showing images electronically, I have changed the blog to read 'You are invited to bring along 2 or 3 of your own edited digital photographs as jpeg files on a memory stick to be shown on a data projector (or prints if you prefer).'

The reason for stipulating digital files was so that images could be projected and easily seen by everyone. The emphasis on digital capture is simply because it makes feedback almost instantaneous. However if people would prefer to shoot on film, please feel free to do so. Paul, Nick and I are all experienced in both digital and silver based image capture and print production.

Hope that clarifies things. If people would prefer to concentrate just on traditional skills in future workshops, we would be happy to set things up. One area we have discussed for a workshop later in the year is tradition processes; keep an eye on the website for future announcements.

Regards

Martin

Tom Kershaw
16th January 2010, 02:14 PM
Roy,

Is film photography really a 'special interest' compared to digital? At least it is still what I think of as the default option. Perhaps using a DSLR is an alternative process...

Tom

RH Designs
16th January 2010, 03:17 PM
I spent an excellent weekend there many years ago, long before pixels arrived on the scene. As Roy says, it was all about photography and not equipment, and if you're looking at picture content rather than technique, in my view it doesn't matter what technology is used. It's good to know the Place is back.

Les McLean
16th January 2010, 05:03 PM
Roy is absolutely right, The Photographers Place is all about the image and, in my opinion, digital is an excellent workshop tool to maximise available time and get to the reason for taking the workshop, namely to improve your vision and get motivated to develop a different approach and new ideas.

The Photographers Place was the venue of my first ever workshop with Paul Hill and the late and sadly missed Ray Moore and at the end of the workshop I left with my head buzzing and full of different ideas. I can definately say that the workshop was by far the most significant part of my own development as a photographer. I subsequently took a few more workshops at The Place and each time I felt that I left a better photographer than when I arrived for the workshop.

My advice to all is to make an effort to take a workshop there but go with an open mind and a be prepared to have your work viewed and critiqued in a sensible, careing way but with no punches pulled.

Dave miller
16th January 2010, 05:20 PM
Hi Dave

Let me introduce myself I am Martin Shakeshaft, who with Paul Hill and Nick Lockett has re launched the Photographers Place.

In light of your comments about showing images electronically, I have changed the blog to read 'You are invited to bring along 2 or 3 of your own edited digital photographs as jpeg files on a memory stick to be shown on a data projector (or prints if you prefer).'

The reason for stipulating digital files was so that images could be projected and easily seen by everyone. The emphasis on digital capture is simply because it makes feedback almost instantaneous. However if people would prefer to shoot on film, please feel free to do so. Paul, Nick and I are all experienced in both digital and silver based image capture and print production.

Hope that clarifies things. If people would prefer to concentrate just on traditional skills in future workshops, we would be happy to set things up. One area we have discussed for a workshop later in the year is tradition processes; keep an eye on the website for future announcements.

Regards

Martin

Thanks for the clarification Martin, I'm sure that there are some here who will be interested, and I personally wish you all the best with this venture; for myself my days of having to view digitally projected images are over.

Mike O'Pray
16th January 2010, 07:40 PM
I think the essential problem for the film photographer on the landscape course is not the ideas/ techniques aspect or even bringing along some prints, although unless the audience is small it become difficult to critique without say several identical prints. NO, the real problem is that the digis have the opportunity to learn from a "before and after" situation because it is instant whereas the analoguer has to go away, develop the film taken that weekend then process the prints and find himself minus the benefit of any "after" critique.

He can further obtain no benefit during the critique if the conversation turns to post processing as I suspect it might.

However to be fair to the organisers there would seem no way round this and they have to cater for the paying customers who will be 100% digis.

Mike

Dave miller
16th January 2010, 07:45 PM
I think the essential problem for the film photographer on the landscape course is not the ideas/ techniques aspect or even bringing along some prints, although unless the audience is small it become difficult to critique without say several identical prints. NO, the real problem is that the digis have the opportunity to learn from a "before and after" situation because it is instant whereas the analoguer has to go away, develop the film taken that weekend then process the prints and find himself minus the benefit of any "after" critique.

He can further obtain no benefit during the critique if the conversation turns to post processing as I suspect it might.

However to be fair to the organisers there would seem no way round this and they have to cater for the paying customers who will be 100% digis.

Mike
There most certainly is a way around it. I have been on a photo-holiday where slide films taken by participants during the day where projected for discussion the same evening.

Mike O'Pray
16th January 2010, 08:10 PM
There most certainly is a way around it. I have been on a photo-holiday where slide films taken by participants during the day where projected for discussion the same evening.


Yes this used to be way on AP when 3 film photogs would be invited to London for a half days shooting with slides developed over lunch and critiqued that afternoon. No prizes for guessing its fate as more and more APers were judged to have abandonned film.

I suspect that even if a dual medium for feedback were possible, the E6 user would be like the great-uncle that you have to tolerate at Xmas but who is seen as out of touch and more trouble than he is worth. The reality is that if you were in a minority of one or even two on the course then to be fair you would in fact be more trouble than you were worth in terms of catering for you.

Mike

Roy_H
16th January 2010, 10:08 PM
... for myself my days of having to view digitally projected images are over.

I have to say I am tempted to comment "so you won't be visiting websites any more then?" - but that would be a cheap shot.

Truth of the matter is - and in answer to Tom - yes, I do think that the practice of film-based photography is now a 'specialist' interest. The use of film is really not a 'default option' for the vast majority of practitioners, be they amateur or professional. Wet or dry plates were the default option until film came along; with the increased portability and flexibility that it brought with it photography changed; it's changing again now.
I still use film, and I also use digital. My love of photography is not tied to process; it's the images that count.

All the workshops I have ever been involved in were film-based; processing, be it B&W or E6, was never an issue, it was just factored in to the whole planning and organisation of the event. Whilst the darkroom facilities at the original Photographer's Place were primitive, but eminently usable, those at Duckspool were better. I had several precious films ruined by the 'technician' in charge of processing at Paul Hill's place once. The facilities at the Cambridge Darkroom were based on the lessons learned at the Photographer's Place. In their final incarnation they were modern and well-equipped, able to hold a workshop class of ten individuals, plus tutors.

I can honestly see the advantages of digital 'capture' in a workshop situation where it is the approach and the image that is being considered and evaluated. Having recently experienced the time-intensive but measured pace of a lith-printing workshop at Thames Valley University - where the darkrooms are superb - it is obvious that any course which intends to support wet processing must find a similarly good facility. These are not easy to find nowadays.

Long-time film-based practitioners – they (we) hold the key to the future continuation of interest in silver-based photography, and (they) we are all getting older. Darkrooms have disappeared, only those in the attics, sheds and bathrooms of the die-hards continue. How will a younger generation gain experience once all the teachers have gone?

This is why workshops like the revived Photographer's Place are important - and important for us all to support, not 'dis' because they happen to mention 'jpgs' (horror!).

Dave miller
16th January 2010, 10:35 PM
“I have to say I am tempted to comment "so you won't be visiting websites any more then?" - but that would be a cheap shot.” Exactly, Roy, it is, and equally incorrect!

I have suffered the degraded results of digitally projected images too many times to want to further the experience, thank you.
Because something is quick, or easy doesn’t make it right. If the aim is to teach digital imaging, then digital projection may be acceptable, as in this reincarnation, but it most certainly is not for me. That is why I said, in my earlier post, that I thought it a shame when I found out that it was to be a digitally based course.

Argentum
17th January 2010, 12:01 AM
Is there a darkroom with enlargers and a print drier in place for the first workshops?

Mike O'Pray
17th January 2010, 12:58 AM
This may be premature but I can see nothing which gives me hope that the kind of equipment necessary for a group of analoguers will be put in place. The kind of RC driers that dry in a matter of seconds which can cater for even a small group are expensive and need time and energy to find.

All we can ask is that the Photographer's Place think things through and is then honest with us as to what analogue courses can be provided or even if any analogue courses can be provided.

The worst of all worlds would be to invite analoguers to participate and for them only to find that they weren't catered for at all.

I feel particularly spectical today as I met a member of the Daventry Photography Club today that I used to attend . I asked about the darkroom. She thought it was still there but hadn't been used as long as she could remember. I asked about the slide competititons and was told that the club had obtained a digi projector. Anyone wanting to enter a slide had to have it digitised but she didn't know of any film users so the problem didn't arise.

What about MF enthusiasts who really only have film, I asked? She didn't know of any. It was like the joke, first man: Our dog doesn't eat meat" He then responds to the understandable quizzical look from the second man and adds " we don't give it any"

Mike

Argentum
17th January 2010, 01:38 AM
I guess they think people will pay to learn how to chimp at histograms. As though histograms have anything to do with photography :rolleyes:
It's indicative of the level of knowledge they expect their participants to have.

Barry
17th January 2010, 04:34 AM
Welcome to fadu Martin. I'm glad to hear you are also accepting traditional prints for your workshops. I wish you every success in the venture, please provide some feedback on the how your first workshop was received once completed.

Barry
17th January 2010, 04:42 AM
Is there a darkroom with enlargers and a print drier in place for the first workshops?

I think this would be most unlikely as the venue is Ilam Hall. The lack of traditional photographic facilities available to workshop facilitators is a real problem.

Xpres
17th January 2010, 12:35 PM
I wonder if anyone has ever put together a mobile darkroom? An old bus perhaps? With a 'dark' marquee for demonstrations?
It may seem that there wouldn't be enough business to make it worthwhile - but if it's the only one...
Maybe I'm loosing it...

B&W Neil
17th January 2010, 12:41 PM
They used to use them in the First World War, drawn by horses of course ;)

Neil.

Les McLean
17th January 2010, 01:34 PM
I wonder if anyone has ever put together a mobile darkroom? An old bus perhaps? With a 'dark' marquee for demonstrations?
It may seem that there wouldn't be enough business to make it worthwhile - but if it's the only one...
Maybe I'm loosing it...

A community group in Manchester had a bus converted into a darkroom some years afo but the idea did not take off. About 4 to 5 years ago IlfordPhoto agreed to store in on their site at Mobberly and did use it one year at Focus when Andrew Sanderson demonstrated making silver prints on an enlarger that used digital files.

Xpres
17th January 2010, 07:14 PM
I wonder where it is now?

I remembered where the bus idea came from... Daniel Meadows - Living like this, and 'The Bus' where he toured around the country doing portraits from a bus.

TheoP
17th January 2010, 07:48 PM
I wonder if anyone has ever put together a mobile darkroom? An old bus perhaps? With a 'dark' marquee for demonstrations?
It may seem that there wouldn't be enough business to make it worthwhile - but if it's the only one...
Maybe I'm loosing it...

My eventual plan is to get one on a canal boat, maybe if I can afford a dutch barge :cool:.

I think if I had the time or money I'd like to try one of these courses, digital or not. It'd be interesting to see whether its about metering/composing correctly, or if its about aspects that are only useful to digital users - real-time histograms, editing in photoshop etc etc.

Martin Reed
18th January 2010, 10:52 AM
.....
All we can ask is that the Photographer's Place think things through and is then honest with us as to what analogue courses can be provided or even if any analogue courses can be provided.

The worst of all worlds would be to invite analoguers to participate and for them only to find that they weren't catered for at all.....


I think there's a certain amount of misunderstanding here of what 'The Photographers Place' is (or was) about; it's images, not the niceties of technique. At the original PP, anyone who had mistakenly booked thinking they were in for a weekend of f numbers and dev. combinations would have been in for a shock, and quickly brought into line.

The fundamental thing that most workshops pivoted around was getting some insight into the thinking of the photographer leading the course, and applying those methods to their own work. Which meant shooting stuff during the course and getting it in front of the group quickly. The work would be shown and discussed at length.

So digital shooting will make that process simpler - people insisting on using traditional film and paper would hold up the rest of the group. If it were to be a traditional based course that's different, but if the new PP follows the methods of the old, then there's a case for swallowing the pride and using pixels.

Mike O'Pray
18th January 2010, 02:15 PM
I think there's a certain amount of misunderstanding here of what 'The Photographers Place' is (or was) about; it's images, not the niceties of technique. At the original PP, anyone who had mistakenly booked thinking they were in for a weekend of f numbers and dev. combinations would have been in for a shock, and quickly brought into line.

The fundamental thing that most workshops pivoted around was getting some insight into the thinking of the photographer leading the course, and applying those methods to their own work. Which meant shooting stuff during the course and getting it in front of the group quickly. The work would be shown and discussed at length.

So digital shooting will make that process simpler - people insisting on using traditional film and paper would hold up the rest of the group. If it were to be a traditional based course that's different, but if the new PP follows the methods of the old, then there's a case for swallowing the pride and using pixels.

Martin, this is more or less what I had expected when I first read the very limited content on the site. I don't have a problem with this but we really need the Photographer's Place spokesperson to spell it out as you have done.

If this isn't and is never intended to be a place catering for analogue in terms of processing, equipment etc then I understand. It just needs saying.

I agree that digital has certain advantage in terms of PP meeting its objectives on such courses as the Landscape week-end but it does mean participants buying and learning what to do with digis to obtain the benefits of the course.

I can't say that purchasing a digi SLR for a weekend's landscape course is something I wish to do.

I also wonder how much a LFer would get out of such courses, even if he/she was prepared to purchase a digi. It may be however that most LFers use digi as a tool anyway. I don't know

Anyway to cut a long story short( I can't do that to save my life :D:) it doesn't look as if PP as it currently stands will not be for me.

Mike

Martin Reed
18th January 2010, 02:49 PM
Mike, I'd be very surprised if the new PP drew a line through traditional techniques. Paul Hill after all co-authored 'Dialogue With Photography', and all his own work has been traditionally crafted - it was he who instigated bringing Agfa Record Rapid back into the UK in 1977, which helped to get traditional techniques firmly refreshed & nailed down again.

But I tend to think the speed at which images can be made d*gitally would be useful in a group situation. Get them to put away their own gear and issue them all with the same model of a reasonably specified compact d*gital camera, that would be a levelling experience.

Dave miller
18th January 2010, 02:54 PM
Mike, I'd be very surprised if the new PP drew a line through traditional techniques. Paul Hill after all co-authored 'Dialogue With Photography', and all his own work has been traditionally crafted - it was he who instigated bringing Agfa Record Rapid back into the UK in 1977, which helped to get traditional techniques firmly refreshed & nailed down again.

But I tend to think the speed at which images can be made d*gitally would be useful in a group situation. Get them to put away their own gear and issue them all with the same model of a reasonably specified compact d*gital camera, that would be a levelling experience.

Maybe too levelling. :)

There is a post from Martin Shakeshaft near the start of the thread that maybe you haven't noticed that clarifies their intent.

Argentum
18th January 2010, 07:15 PM
I think there's a certain amount of misunderstanding here of what 'The Photographers Place' is (or was) about

On the contrary let me correct your misunderstanding. I understand fully what this new outfit is all about.

Dave miller
18th January 2010, 07:40 PM
On the contrary let me correct your misunderstanding. I understand fully what this new outfit is all about.

Making money? ;)

Argentum
18th January 2010, 08:35 PM
Making money? ;)

These weekend photography schools are popping up all over the place.
Pro photographers are running them left right and center. Everyone seems to be getting in the on the act. The profit margin from a weekend like this is around £4000 split between the leaders. Fair enough they make some money. No problem with that. But a weekend to learn about landscape photography? Lets get real here. The courses are aimed at the mass leisure market which is happy to throw £300 on a couple of walks in the countryside with some photography banter thrown in. It's easy money.

They just ain't for me even if I was looking for someone elses vision which I'm not.

Hey guys how about we set our own up course. Now whose school of photography can we associate ourselves with to use as marketing hype?

Hang on a minute.... Les and Peter beat us to it.

Then there's "light and land". Even one of the local photographers in Salcombe has started doing "Photography Corurses" for the tourists.
It's the in thing to do.

This new outfit is just another in the same mould except they seem to be trying to claim some high ground by trying to claim they represent something long dead.

Now I'm expecting a reply of we're trying to educate people. Well maybe, but don't be arrogant about it and most of all don't try to teach people how to suck eggs without being asked to first.

Mike O'Pray
18th January 2010, 10:25 PM
Rob I take it that's a NO then :D: :D:

Mike

Argentum
18th January 2010, 10:33 PM
Rob I take it that's a NO then :D: :D:

Mike

Just letting everyone know where I stand;)

Martin Reed
18th January 2010, 10:42 PM
I doubt if anyone ever got rich running photo workshops...and I don't think Paul Hill would lend his name or be involved in an operation that wasn't on the 'high ground'.

I suppose, like Les, I'm one of the ones who go a little misty eyed at the memory of the photographic boot camp in Derbyshire. But a lot of time has passed, and most of those people who made the trip to Bradbourne then are unlikely to be candidates for a new PP. If the same energy can be summoned up now it's down to a newer generation, hence digital is top agenda.

One other point, the Photographers Place actually was a 'place', a point on the map, and having a little sanctuary with photo library and many excellent photographs on the walls, somewhere to meditate, was part of the experience. The experience might not be quite the same in temporary accomodation.

Barry
18th January 2010, 11:16 PM
...
One other point, the Photographers Place actually was a 'place', a point on the map, and having a little sanctuary with photo library and many excellent photographs on the walls, somewhere to meditate, was part of the experience. The experience might not be quite the same in temporary accomodation.

I fully agree Martin. I have spent a few enjoyable weeks at Inversnaid over the years. It's nice to have the company of other photographers, a good library of photographic books and very comfortable accommodation.

Dave miller
19th January 2010, 07:53 AM
I wasn’t suggesting that there is anything wrong in running these, or similar events for financial reward. If that’s what it takes, then I’m all for the impetus of cash. As for the event under discussion I do think it very good value, since the £300 fee includes 2 nights full board, by way of comparison our own weekend sojourn to Dorset (http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=22712#post22712) will cost around half that sum half-board, so no filthy capitalistic profiteering sullying the high ground there. :)

My disinterest in the subject event remains rooted purely in the digital emphasise, necessary or no.

For the record I have been on several residential workshops and enjoyed them immensely, but then they were digital free events.

B&W Neil
19th January 2010, 09:48 AM
Another point about the cost of running any course is that it is not simply about £X for the weekend. One has to pay for talent and skills and the organisers would have put a lot of time in arranging and planning before the weekend as well as being there all of the time over the weekend.

Neil.

Trevor Crone
19th January 2010, 11:45 AM
As someone who helps a friend in running one of his week long photographic workshops. I can seriously say that I feel exhausted after a weeks landscape workshop, so much so that I need a holiday to get over it :)

Dave miller
19th January 2010, 01:07 PM
As someone who helps a friend in running one of his week long photographic workshops. I can seriously say that I feel exhausted after a weeks landscape workshop, so much so that I need a holiday to get over it :)

I recommend a week photographing the landscape.;)

Argentum
19th January 2010, 06:16 PM
I wasn’t suggesting that there is anything wrong in running these, or similar events for financial reward. If that’s what it takes, then I’m all for the impetus of cash. As for the event under discussion I do think it very good value, since the £300 fee includes 2 nights full board, by way of comparison our own weekend sojourn to Dorset (http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=22712#post22712) will cost around half that sum half-board, so no filthy capitalistic profiteering sullying the high ground there. :)

My disinterest in the subject event remains rooted purely in the digital emphasise, necessary or no.

For the record I have been on several residential workshops and enjoyed them immensely, but then they were digital free events.

£300 is cheap, largely because the YHA accommodation is so cheap. Fact is that digital means that people offering these courses need to provide zero equipment. If a venue/hotel has a seminar room room then it likely provides a digital projector and even if it doesn't, all the organiser needs by way of equipment is a digital projector and laptop and most people already have a laptop. i.e. there is next to no investment required to run these courses except for some time in planning. That is the reason I beleive why so many people are doing them. There is no risk of losing money if it doesn't work out.
And the leaders get to photograph where they want to and make some money too.

kev curry
20th January 2010, 10:36 AM
That kind of healthy scepticism and insight is right up my alley Percepts;)