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TimoS
19th January 2010, 09:22 AM
I'm about to run my first tests for my film/developer combination (Kodak Tri-X 400 with Prescysol EF). I have a Paterson series 4 Universal tank which can take two 35mm reels.

If I only want to develop one film,

should I put both reels into the tank to fix the reel's position in the tank (even if only one reel is actually filled),
should I use the same quantity of developer/fixer as I would need if were to develop two films/reels,

so that when inverting the tank, the film will always be fully covered in the chemicals? Or is it sufficient to have the chemicals cover the entire film only when the tank is standing upright?

Dave miller
19th January 2010, 09:30 AM
Welcome to the forum Timo.
Either put both reels in the tank with the reel with film on it at the bottom of the tank.
You only need sufficient chemical (600ml) to cover the bottom reel only.

Steve Smith
19th January 2010, 09:38 AM
I would put both reels in the tank as Dave suggested. I recently used one reel in my two reel tank and relied on the little plastic clip to keep the reel down the bottom of the tank..... it didn't!!

I had one side of the strip of film processed normally and the other side almosrt clear.


Steve.

TimoS
19th January 2010, 09:40 AM
Thank you for your lightning fast reply! I must have come to the right place for this question!

The background for my question is that if I only use one reel, the reel might slide on the tank's central tube when I invert the tank , tapping it on its top lid.

The other reason for asking was that if I only use liquid to cover one reel, the film will be out of the liquid during the inversion step. Could this be a problem?

... and while we're at it: I noticed that its very easy to incompletely close the tank's elastic top lid, causing it to leak. Thus, I have to develop a routine to run my thumb around the edge of the lid to securely close it, which takes additional time before I can start with first tank agitation. Does this cause a prpoblem, or are these estimated 10 initial seconds irrelevant?

Steve, you were faster than me... So you suggest I include the second reel in the tank, even it it is empty?

B&W Neil
19th January 2010, 09:42 AM
H, Timo, and welcome to FADU.

Most tanks have printed on them somewhere the amounts of chemicals needed to cover the spiral/s - this is usually underneath.
There is usually a clip type thing for when using one spiral but this may have become lost. Dave's suggestion of using both spirals will do the trick. However, I use a an old plastic film cassette container with the bottom sliced off with a sharp knife (to make a tube) instead of one of my spirals. They keep for years :D

Neil.

Dave miller
19th January 2010, 09:57 AM
Thank you for your lightning fast reply! I must have come to the right place for this question!

The background for my question is that if I only use one reel, the reel might slide on the tank's central tube when I invert the tank , tapping it on its top lid.

The other reason for asking was that if I only use liquid to cover one reel, the film will be out of the liquid during the inversion step. Could this be a problem?

... and while we're at it: I noticed that its very easy to incompletely close the tank's elastic top lid, causing it to leak. Thus, I have to develop a routine to run my thumb around the edge of the lid to securely close it, which takes additional time before I can start with first tank agitation. Does this cause a prpoblem, or are these estimated 10 initial seconds irrelevant?

Steve, you were faster than me... So you suggest I include the second reel in the tank, even it it is empty?

The film being out of the developer during the inversion period will not matter as the emulsion will by then contain developer, and in any case it is only for a couple of seconds.

When you fit the lid of the tank press down firmly on the middle, this will expel some air and make a lower pressure inside the tank which will stop the leaking. Again the slight delay is not a problem.

TimoS
19th January 2010, 10:01 AM
Thank you for your help! I'm impressed by the kind and fast support you are giving to me!

Dave miller
19th January 2010, 10:03 AM
Thank you for your help! I'm impressed by the kind and fast support you are giving to me!

I'm not usually on-line so much, but today it is providing an ideal excuse for rests from my task of renovating my bathroom. :)

Alan Clark
19th January 2010, 10:34 AM
Welcome to the forum Timo.

You only need sufficient chemical (600ml) to cover the bottom reel only.

I think Dave meant 300mls.

Alan

Richard Gould
19th January 2010, 10:38 AM
Hi Timo and welcome to fadu, I use the same tanks as you and for 35mm I always use the two reels, even for 1 film,and you only need enough chemical for the film to be developed, for 35mm in patterson tank it's 300ml per film, and I use the twiddle stick to agitate the film,I find it works fine and I don't get covered in chemical if the top is not on quite right,Richard

Dave miller
19th January 2010, 10:51 AM
I think Dave meant 300mls.

Alan

No, I meant 600ml, but that's for 120 film, it may be less for 35mm film. The recommended amount is shown on the bottom. Is it only 300ml for a 35mm reel? :confused:

Alan Clark
19th January 2010, 10:59 AM
No, I meant 600ml, but that's for 120 film, it may be less for 35mm film. The recommended amount is shown on the bottom. Is it only 300ml for a 35mm reel? :confused:

It says 290mm on my Paterson tanks, for one 35mm film. But I always use 320 to be sure of covering the film.

Alan

Dave miller
19th January 2010, 11:01 AM
It says 290mm on my Paterson tanks, for one 35mm film. But I always use 320 to be sure of covering the film.

Alan

Just shows how long it is since I developed 35mm. :o

Steve Smith
19th January 2010, 11:29 AM
Steve, you were faster than me... So you suggest I include the second reel in the tank, even it it is empty?

Either put the empty reel on the spindle or use some other method of ensuring the reel does not move up the spindle when you invert the tank.

Most developing tanks have a small plastic C clip which is supposed to stop this happening but they don't always work. I have been known to tape this to the spindle to stop it moving but I am thinking about drilling it and tapping a thread into the spindle so I can put a retaining screw into it.


Steve.

RH Designs
19th January 2010, 11:48 AM
The reels in my Paterson tank are quite a close fit on the central column and I've only ever once had a single reel apparently move up the column - and I suspect that was more to do with me not seating it properly in the first place. So I don't use the second reel when developing 35mm. I always tap the tank on the bench after an inversion so it may be that simply nudges it back down again if it does move :)

Tony Marlow
19th January 2010, 07:20 PM
If you are using Prescysol you can use Peter's semi-stand method where inversions are minimal so the film is rarely not in the developer.
Tony

Argentum
19th January 2010, 08:29 PM
The reels in my Paterson tank are quite a close fit on the central column and I've only ever once had a single reel apparently move up the column - and I suspect that was more to do with me not seating it properly in the first place. So I don't use the second reel when developing 35mm. I always tap the tank on the bench after an inversion so it may be that simply nudges it back down again if it does move :)

Agreed, rapping tank on a firm base after inversions makes the reels slide down. I always use two reels but there is still a little room for slipping so don't scrimp on chemistry volume. I use 300ml for single reel.

Steve Smith
19th January 2010, 08:37 PM
If you are using Prescysol you can use Peter's semi-stand method where inversions are minimal so the film is rarely not in the developer.

Unfortunately, in the case I mentioned above when my film came out half developed, I was using Prescysol!


Steve.

vincent
19th January 2010, 08:47 PM
I would use both reels and 300ml of developer. But I also think that it is worth having a single reel tank.

Larry
19th January 2010, 09:32 PM
I'm a strong believer in using a dedicated single reel developing tank when processing 1 roll at a time. Less hassle using the right tool for the job. So far, I've had very good luck with the AP model. It does simplify developing. Note, both AP and Paterson reels are interchangeable.

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/ap-film-developing-tank--reel-931-p.asp

http://firstcall-photographic.co.uk/shop/search/ap%20deve/0/ap/ap-developing-tank-35mm/

Just a thought :cool:, not that I'm encouraging you to spend money but like Vincent suggests well worth considering.

regards
Larry

Mike O'Pray
19th January 2010, 10:13 PM
Hi Timo and welcome. Vincent and Larry have beaten me to the punch. Single 35mm Jobo or Durst reels only need 250ml. If you ever want to try rotary processing the Jobo is the one to go for. You can then use 140mls.

Over perhaps several years the saving in chemicals if you go down the 250 ml reel route will ensure the new tanks and reels will certainly pay for themselves. If you ever go for a rotary processor then the chemical saving is appreciably more.

Mike

TimoS
20th January 2010, 02:05 PM
Thank you so much everybody for your kind advice!

I guess I'll only consider processing one roll in my two-reel tank for process testing, so I think I can live with wasting a little bit of the precious chemicals.

I still have another question that I couldn't get answered anywhere else:

My tank comes with a little twiddler stick for turning the reels when they are immersed in the chemicals. Virtually all deveoplers' instructions I have found give processing times for tank inversion agitation and not for twiddling the reels without inverting. Can I use the same times and twiddle instead of inverting? Or do I have to multiply the specified times with a certain factor for twiddling? And, which type of tank agitation is better anyway?

Richard Gould
20th January 2010, 02:45 PM
Just use the same times and twiddle instead of inverting,if it is 10 seconds in every minute the ten twiddles, instead of 4 inversions every minute, I use the twiddle stick instead on inversions all the time with my patterson tanks with no problems, Just one more thing when twiddling turn 5 clockwise then the next 5 anticlockwise,Richard

bill spears
20th January 2010, 03:08 PM
As mentioned above, use the twiddle stick in different directions and don't do it too vigorously. I once had terrible streaking which I was certain due to spinning the spiral around in the tank too fast.

I'm an inverter rather than a twiddler.

darkroommike
27th July 2014, 12:50 PM
I have some old Kaiser reels that I use only for spacers if processing just one roll.

The Paterson top has enough displacement that your film is partially out of the developer even when using two reels in the Universal tank, this has never proven to be a problem.

I've made spacers before from PVC pipe, plastic film canisters are getting harder to find!

You always want to "burp" your lids to prevent leaking, in the US there is a process called the Tupperware™ Burp for use with plastic food storage containers, I've taught this to my students for years.

I use 300ml rather than 290ml just to simplify the math.

I use the twirler stick for stop, fix, etc., but never for developer. The old System 4 tanks never sealed so I had to use the twirler for all solutions. The new Super tanks seal nicely.

JohnX
27th July 2014, 07:47 PM
Don't you just love film photography, where else on Earth are we required to count elephants, have a 10 second twiddle and burp lids...lol
I'm on the look out for one of them there rapping tanks Argentum uses.....sounds wicked..yo

:D

Mike O'Pray
27th July 2014, 09:52 PM
This is not to discourage your contribution, darkroommike or for that matter JohnX who is anyway using the thread for welcome humour but TimoS was last here way back in 2010.

It just seems a waste of time to help someone who effectively left us over 3 years ago.

Mike