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Gavin
12th February 2010, 12:27 AM
A few queries on enlargers if you don't mind.

First off I've obtained my first piece of dark room equipment, a Componon-S 2.8/50mm enlarger lens which is still in its factory box complete with silica gel for £40. I understand this is a quality piece of glass and am personally very happy with what I paid considering its been removed from its box for only 4 sessions.

Now, to match this up to an equally deserving enlarger what would be my best route? Some confusing factors I've read is that true B&W enlargers are best for B&W developing but then there's the argument colour enlargers are better in giving the option of filter effects for paper variations, so would both be better?

Next query is a guesstimation on what my local camera store has for sale. They say that they have an LPL color enlarger for sale which has been sat in their stock room for a while and want half price to clear at £150, so my question is that if you were to buy a new LPL colour enlarger for £150 what model/s would you be happy to receive and what would you expect to come with it? Any rep on the LPL brand would also be useful.

You may want to take into account that I'm being gifted an unknown B&W enlarger tomorrow. I don't know the model but it was the enlarger originally bought with this Componon-S glass so I imagine it will be of some quality, however, quality or not if two enlargers are optimum even if only shooting monochrome so be it if the price is right. (space is not an issue)

Thank you in advance.

Mossy.

Argentum
12th February 2010, 01:01 AM
you'll get lots of varied answers on this question.

Firstly there are essentially two types of enlarger. Diffusion and Condensor. Condensor are theoretically capable of delivering sharper prints but most who have compared say they can't see a difference.
Diffusion are the norm for colour printing but because colour heads have magenta and yellow filters, they are also good for B+W.
So either type is fine.
Next you need to consider biggest negative format you will want to print. 6x7cm is big enough for most people but if you are thinking of 6x9 format or bigger negs then make sure your enlarger can cope and has the neg masks etc for it.
Then comes the thorny question of whether to use colour head dichroic filters or perhaps ilford filters or possibly a special variable contrast filter head which are available for some enlargers.
Ilford filters are good with condensor enlargers but they are also good as under the lens filters on colour head enlargers. Colour head or VC filter heads give infinitely variable contrast settings. So if you know you only want to do B+W then VC head is probably easiest but colour head is simple too but slightly less convenient.
But for a complete beginner the ilford filters combined with ilford papers might give you a head start because they are very well matched.
Basically any of the above will work for you.

Are LPL any good? Lots of people think so. Personally I'm a Durst man. Others here are LPL types. An enlarger is a pretty basic bit of kit. The two important things are that it doesn't leak light and that it can be aligned and stays in alignment otherwise it'll be a pain to use.

Personally I think the durst negative holders are superior to LPL but others will tell you LPL are fine.

IMO just take your freebie enlarger and use that until you are comfortable with how it works and what you are doing. You will then be in a much better position to make a judgement on whether it suits your purpose or you need something else.

The quality of output from an enlarger is dependant on its alignment and your skill as a printer and not which make or model it is. i.e. a properly aligned very cheap enlarger with a reasonable lens is capable of equal quality output as a very expensive top of the line enlarger. The top of the line one may be easier to use and may have auto focus and built in negative metering but that doesn't make the output better. That is down to you.

Dave miller
12th February 2010, 07:33 AM
LPL enlargers are of reasonable build quality and capable of quality work. I think two models are sold here, the C6700 and C7700. I think the C7700 allows bigger enlargements to be made from film formats up to 6x7cm, they are still in production and therefore spares, should anything be required, are available.

My advice must be to purchase an enlarger with a diffusion colour head, that’s one with dial in filtration, as I think this will be simpler to learn with. As for commenting on the one on offer from your club I cannot without knowing which model it is, but £150 doesn’t seem too unreasonable given its known condition and ease of collection; however some negotiation is in order.

As for the machine that you are to receive tomorrow, I shall be interested to read which make and model it is.

martinb
12th February 2010, 09:04 AM
I have both an LPL C6700 and Beseler 23C. I bought thye Beseler while living in the US, paid $200 for it, 20 years old but still new in the box!. Its a condenser enlarger that has a drawer to take the VC filters. Very sharp and contrasty images from Nikon lenses but shows up every spot of dust on the negative. I bought the LPL from a fellow camera club member for £75 last year in excellent condition. Works well and prints seem to show fewer spots due to the diffusion head. I would also take the freebie enlarger and see how you get on before spending more. Save the money for a decent timer.

Martin

Richard Gould
12th February 2010, 10:18 AM
The most important part of an enlarger is the lens,you have an extremely good lens, I prefer to use a condenser enlarger withj ilford above lens filters. I would suggest that you use a condenser enlarfger and use the ilford filters,either above lenns or below lens, it is a simpler option. Also consider the biggest negative size you want. You maybe content with 35mm now but you may in the future want to use m.f., and if your enlarger is only capable of 35mm then you would need another enlarger. Take the freebie and see what it is, it may well be perfectly good for what you want,but if you do get the lpl then yiou won't go far wrong,I don'tthink there is much to chose between the makes unless you go for a top end make such as duncol,Richard

Miha
12th February 2010, 10:34 AM
I would be happy with another Kaiser System-V enlarger. Still in production, made in Germany double-condensor* enlarger with either colour or multigrade B&W head. Top-notch quality.


http://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/produkte/2_1_sortiment.asp?w=1347

*A must for enlarging 135 film.

Tom Kershaw
12th February 2010, 10:48 AM
Miha,

Could you elaborate on the reasons for a double condensor system for making prints from 35mm film? (a format that I don't seem to get on with, but would like to use)

Tom

Alan Clark
12th February 2010, 11:17 AM
Mossy,
for many years I used multiple format enlargers- first one that would do 35mm and 6x6, then one that would do from 35mm up to 6x9. I thought changing condensers and fiddling with sliding masks on negative carriers was the norm. Then one day I bought a Leitz Valoy 2. a 35mm only enlarger. It was a revelation It was so much simpler to use. No more fiddling around; its just set up to go! But I'm lucky to have room for other enlargers. If you only have room for one and want to print different formats you have no choice but to go for a multi-format enlarger.

Alan

P.S. The Leitz Valoy has only one condenser but works like a charm. It is the only condenser enlarger I have used that has no central hot-spot.. All the two-condenser enlargers I have used have had uneven baseboard illumination, including a Meopta Magnifax.

Alan

RH Designs
12th February 2010, 11:38 AM
Personally I would choose a diffusion enlarger any day over condenser. Much less of a faff to set up, and doesn't show up the dust and scratches. I started with an LPL 7700 colour in 1987 and have never felt the need to change. It's not the brightest enlarger out there but it does the job and is very solidly built.

Bob
12th February 2010, 12:59 PM
This is quite an area for personal preference - as you may be discovering already ;)!

If the LPL has been sitting unwanted in the stock room for a while, it is unlikely to be going anywhere soon so I'd wait until you find what exactly your free enlarger is: it may be that it has all the features and build quality you need at this stage. If not, then the LPL will still be there in a week or so. Do find out which model it is tho: although the 6700 and 7700 are the most common, there are some older ones knocking around, as well as the 74xx models which take up to 5"x4" negatives.

My preference is for a colour head as it is the most versatile, especially of course if you want to try colour printing later on, but a dedicated b&w head makes things a little quicker and a little less prone to error. Ideally one of each would be best if room and budget allows but starting with the most versatile seems to make sense.

In case you were wondering about all this talk about diffusion Vs condenser... A condenser head uses one or two large lenses to focus the light from the bulb to a beam before it hits the negative. These usually have a filter drawer in the light-path where you can insert "above-the-lens" filters to control contrast when using variable contrast papers. Because the light is in a beam it tends to show up every speck of dust on the negative.

Diffusion heads shatter the light in a diffusion box to give even light over the whole negative. Most colour heads are diffusion types. Because the light hits the negative from many different angles, dust is less obvious.

There are also b&w heads that have the contrast filters built in, but these are rarer. Be careful when people say "b&w enlarger" because what they normally mean is an enlarger with a simple head with no filtration at all, but sometimes mean an enlarger with a head with built-in contrast filters (a "multigrade head") - the one is a very different animal from the other, the latter being much more desirable of course.

Have fun, Bob.

Miha
12th February 2010, 01:16 PM
Miha,

Could you elaborate on the reasons for a double condensor system for making prints from 35mm film? (a format that I don't seem to get on with, but would like to use)

Tom

More micro contrast and sharpness due to Callier effect:

http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/003/003RVB-8586684.jpg

The down side is some loss of highlight detail. Miniature (135) is often enlarged to a grater extend than medium or LF. The use of condenser light source is therefore beneficial.

Miha

Gavin
13th February 2010, 01:18 AM
Well I never expected such a broad spectrum of views so please excuse me when I don't quote or thank you individually but its been a great help reading and re-reading your replies.

I picked up the free enlarger which turned out to be a Jobo C 6600 and colour, not B&W. Its ropey and needed rewiring so I've stripped the wiring either side of the transformer and up to the lamp but stopped when considering I may be wasting my time. I'm not an ungrateful soul and although this enlarger may well do the job it just feels like a week link to me. This isn't a slant on the brand, model or quality but more the fact the broken lamp holder was held together with twisted copper wire, the mains cable consists of three different sized cables badly wired together, the lamp holders wire tails were badly joined but cleverly hidden inside what first appeared to be a 'factory fit' and the whole thing needs a bloody good clean.
I've been here before having resurrected something only to wish I'd saved some hours in my life sourcing something I'd feel more confident in.

It was mentioned that Ilford filters combined with Ilford papers would be a good angle for a beginner and funnily enough I was surprised to be gifted a box of Ilford filters with the enlarger. I'm not sure if its the same thing mentioned but the box has 'Ilford Multigrade' written on the front with square housed circular filters numbered: 0-through-5 & 00, 1-1/2 through 4-1/2 inside. There is also what appears to be the correct carrier for them having space for two filters at a time.

As for the shop new/old-stock enlarger it's an LPL 6700. The £150 asking price is firmly non negotiable but the unit does come with a multi film carrier, base board, transformer and negative stage?

To further ask your advice and from someone who'd rather pay for a new unit with primarily B&W in mind what would you do considering all of the above? If it helps I'm currently looking at 35mm to start but am interested in much larger formats once comfortable with my skills and abilities. £500 max.

Argentum
13th February 2010, 02:30 AM
I think jobo enlargers are rebranded LPL or possibly Kaiser enlargers but I'm not sure about that. It may be their own. The electrics in an enlarger are fairly simple because all they do is light a bulb. The more complex stuff is in the transformer and timer which are usually separate items.

The filters you have are Ilford under the lens filters. The holder is either connected with a three legged piece which the lens holds in place or with three screws which hold it to the lens barrel. The filters are very good if in good condition. i.e. not scratched or covered in dirty finger prints. They need to be in good condition because they go under the lens and not above the negative. They are very well speed matched so that you can change filter without having to change print time. At least that is the theory but you may need to tweak print time a small amount with a filter change.

for £500 you can buy a very good second hand enlarger. For new price thats not a lot and you will need lots of other bits such as developing trays, focus finder, measuring graduates, enlarger timer, transformer if unit needs one.

On that point you should know some condensor enlargers don't require transformers as they use 100 or 150 watt bulbs but you will need a timer. The units with halogen bulbs need transformers. Some have them built in and others are separate.

Also something not mentioned is maximum print size. There is a fixed distance between the optical axis of the enlarger and the base of the enlarger column. On smaller enlargers that may only be 6 to 8 inches. That means the maximum print width is 12 to 16 inches. But when you print using an easel (you'll need one those too), the easel takes 2 or 3 inches so you may only get max print size of around 8 or 12 inches width. The bigger enlargers usually allow bigger prints as the optical axis to column base distance is bigger. Just make sure you check before buying anything and allow at least 3 inches for the easel. If you want to make 20x16 inch prints you will need an enlarger which has at least 10 to 12 inches from optical axis to column base.

The following is a link to a pdf brochure of the last made durst enlargers. Production has now ceased but its useful if trying to source second hand.
www.darkroom.ru/info/manuals/durst_catalog_eng.pdf

I don't know about that particular LPL model which you are being offered.

Kaiser VPM models look very good too.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kaiser-VPM-6005-Multigrade-Enlarger_W0QQitemZ170445052294QQcmdZViewItemQQptZU K_Photography_DarkroomSupplies_SM?hash=item27af511 986

for the above there is an accessory (extension arm) you can buy which increases optical axis to column base by 3 inches so max print width becomes at least 18 inches. i.e. you should be able to use 20x16 paper. Max neg size is 6x6cm on the VPM 6005 but it would be ideal for you if 6x6 is big enough for your needs.

Dave miller
13th February 2010, 07:20 AM
Given your difficulties may I suggest that you consider visiting one of our sponsors, SDS (http://www.secondhanddarkroom.co.uk) who hold an extensive range of enlargers and who are able to advise on the most suitable for you. It will allow you to compare the various types and makes available as well as see some of the other equipment that you may require. Obviously there is a premium on buying from a trader, but guarantees and hands-on advise do have a considerable value.

Mike O'Pray
13th February 2010, 11:05 PM
At £500 max I'd have thought that even at SDS you'll have quite a choice and I suspect that a retailer such as SDS might entertain a bit of haggling if the asking price is reasonably close to £500. You the buyer represent definite cash in hand which is quite a bargaining lever.

Mike

Alan Clark
14th February 2010, 10:08 AM
I think you might get a good enlarger really cheaply. There must be lots of people out there who have gone digital and no longer need one. A friend of mine who went over to digital gave me his Meopta Magnifax - a very valuable piece of kit to me - but not to him. I bought a Leitz Valoy 2 complete with Leitz Focotar lens for £20 off Ebay. Nobody else bid for it. Our camera club occasionally gets offered enlargers-free- from people who have one "cluttering up" their house. But apart from me and another film photographer, nobody in our club has any need for one.
Why not contact your local camera clubs and ask if any of their members have an enlarger they don't want? You may have to hire a big van to go round and collect them all up!
I will ask at my club for you.
Good luck.

Alan

MickS
14th February 2010, 08:21 PM
Watcha,
I started off with one of those Russian enlagers in a case, back in the late 60s early 70s, then I upgraded to a Gnome, then kids and family stopped all that sort of fun. Now I have a Durst CLS450 with a colour head, great for B&W on MG paper, I don't do colour, but, of course, its the best of both worlds. See what the freeby is, it may be a guddun, but if you have to muck about repairing bellows, forget it.
best
Mick

Gavin
15th February 2010, 11:25 PM
Thank you again guys. Your advice and experience will help in my decision including contacting SDS.

For now I'm going to concentrate on rearranging the garage, installing the worktops, electrics, sink and waste set up.

I'll be reading and re-reading this as the dark room comes along so thank you all for taking the time.

Mossy.

B&W Neil
16th February 2010, 08:45 AM
Best of luck with the darkroom construction and don't forget to take a few pics along the way to show us later :)

Neil.

Gavin
16th February 2010, 05:19 PM
Thank you Neil will do.