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PaulG
25th November 2008, 09:54 PM
Ok, so here goes with a naive but sincere question.

I'm starting to dabble with fibre-based paper for printing having started, like most novices, with resin-coated papers. The big issue with FB paper seems to be drying prints flat. I've tried pegging them back-to-back, and while this sort of works, it isn't perfect. After drying on a line or rack, in a manner analagous to using a dry mounting press, is there any reason why prints can't be ironed?

I'm not suggesting direct contact with an iron at maximum setting, but it seems that some indirect heat and maybe even a little moisture would help a print flatten. Am I completely mad for pondering this? Has anyone ever tried this approach, and if so, just how disastrous was it?

Argentum
26th November 2008, 02:13 AM
Yes prints can be ironed no problem at all. Just put it on a low setting. But wait until they are 90% dry before ironing. I dry mount prints on occasion using an iron.

The best way of drying them flat is to use blotters which can be had from silverprint or firstcall. They will be perfectly flat when they come out of blotters. Blotters are reuseable.

Or for speed, a FB print dryer. Again obtainable from silverprint or firstcall.

Argentum
26th November 2008, 04:16 AM
to add:

You iron it on the paper side. Just be very careful to place print face down on a very clean piece of mount board with no fluff or tiny pieces of card on it and then iron away.

Also when placing iron on pint, make sure you place it flat cos if put one edge of the iron down when the print is already hot, it will leave an impression in the gelatin surface.

Dave miller
26th November 2008, 07:25 AM
Fibre prints curl because the backing paper dries first whilst the water swollen emulsion both takes longer to dry and shrinks more than the paper when it does. My experience is that they curl less if dried slowly.
I hang mine with clothes pegs on a line over the darkroom sink (with pegs on the bottom as weights) where the higher air humidity slows drying. I then place the dried prints in an A3 cartridge paper sketch pad which is then weighted under a sheet of glass for a few days.

Some printers blot the prints to remove surface water and then lay their prints, face down, on fly mesh screens. This also minimises curl, and is followed by pressing to completely flatten the prints.
Ironing prints will I think work, but I imagine it is will be very easy to damage the emulsion so will require care as Rob has said.

Argentum
26th November 2008, 08:32 AM
If FB prints dried perfectly flat, then there would be little need of dry mounting them. The problem is that they don't dry flat and using any press to flatten them after the event is too late because all that does is bend the bend paper fibres which will unbend over time as the paper absorbs humidity from the air. Drying in blotters or FB print drier from wet is optimum as the paper fibres are far more meleable and negates the need for dry mounting IMO.
Fly screens are cheap but the paper doesn't dry evenly and is nearly always wavy and therefore needs pressing and / or dry mounting.
Do yourself a favour and get some boltters or a FB print drier. A 20x16 drier can do 4 8x10 at a time but you can stack as many prints as you like in blotters. The thing is to be patient. 8x10 prints are much less of a problem than bigger prints and once you get to 20x16 then drying perfectly flat saves a lot of hassle later on when mounting them.

PaulG
26th November 2008, 08:52 AM
Thanks all. It came up as a discussion at a photography evening class I go to, I was just curious to know if what sounded good in theory would actually work in practice.

I must confess to a sneaky practice with an old test strip as I was ironing a shirt for work this morning (no shirts were harmed in the conduct of this experiment). It seemed to work, but I can see that one would need to be careful not to damage the emulsion.

Dave miller
26th November 2008, 10:01 AM
I’m surprised at your comments regarding the use of a FB print drier Rob. Are you referring to those dreadful curved heated plate things with a stretch canvas cover? I have one of these and it’s use guarantees me cockled paper edges that no amount of pressing will get rid of. I’ve used it less than ten times and consigned it to the junk cupboard a long time ago. I have several times considered ebaying it, but would not sleep easy at night if I did, thinking of the misery I may have inflicted on my fellow man.

I’m interested to hear of anyone else on this forum using one, and their experiences. Of course if anyone wants to buy one of these excellent pieces of equipment without which a darkroom may be considered deficient then please PM me. I have a pristine 16x12 unit that may even be double sided, giving the opportunity of ruining double the number of prints in one operation.

Rob Archer
26th November 2008, 10:25 AM
I've got one of those curved print drier things - at's ancient but still works. I occasionally use it for 12 x 16s. I find the best way is to sandwich the nearly-dry print between 2 sheets of photo blotting paper and warm on the lowest temperature for about 1 hour, then leave the print in the dryer for a few hours (usually overnight) to cool. I never get cockled edges this way. I gather that Ilford paper is much more prone to cockled edges that the Kentmere I usually use.

Rob

Argentum
26th November 2008, 11:16 AM
If prints are in the wash for too long or the cloth tension is not enough then that could be the cause of cockling. And the cloth should be a fine muslin and not canvas.
Did you buy it new cos the cloth may have been changed for the wrong stuff.

B&W Neil
26th November 2008, 11:33 AM
Never had the need to use heat on FB papers myself. I just let them dry naturally pegged to a line then when dry leave them under a pile of books for a few days :) Then mount as required hung from a top securing tape only behind a mat mount.

If you can't use a line those cheap devices you dry pullovers on (to stop them stretching) will do the trick.

Neil.

Dave miller
26th November 2008, 11:39 AM
If prints are in the wash for too long or the cloth tension is not enough then that could be the cause of cockling. And the cloth should be a fine muslin and not canvas.
Did you buy it new cos the cloth may have been changed for the wrong stuff.

Brand new.

Dave miller
26th November 2008, 11:45 AM
Never had the need to use heat on FB papers myself. I just let them dry naturally pegged to a line then when dry leave them under a pile of books for a few days :) Then mount as required hung from a top securing tape only behind a mat mount.

If you can't use a line those cheap devices you dry pullovers on (to stop them stretching) will do the trick.

Neil.

I'm with you Neil. I use a back board which is top hinged to the matt so that the top hung print is sandwiched between the two. I only use adhesive to fix the print to the back board if the print is going to remain unframed, as it would do for club exhibitions or competitions.

Dave miller
26th November 2008, 05:10 PM
It's an interesting question Paul raised. So how do the rest of you cope, anyone else dashing away with the smoothing iron?

Sandeha Lynch
26th November 2008, 05:31 PM
Drying flat on blotting paper seemed good for me. And then, once perfectly dry, into a file sleeve and stuffed under the weight of several art books for a few days.

Argentum
26th November 2008, 05:52 PM
It's an interesting question Paul raised. So how do the rest of you cope, anyone else dashing away with the smoothing iron?

Just bung a few prints in with the rest of the ironing and see if they turn up in the airing cupboard, nice and flat and well aired. :D

Trevor Crone
26th November 2008, 05:53 PM
Slight variation to other methods here. I squeegee the wet FB print using a viscose sponge. The print is then placed on an apron drier for 3 min. @ 50*C. The prints are still quite damp when they come off the apron drier. I would never recommend drying a FB print completely this way. They are then placed between blotters, x3 then a print, then another 3 blotters and so on until all the prints are stacked. They are left like this over night in a cool room. Next day the blotters are replaced with fresh ones, then the stack is placed under weights for a few days until completely air dried.

Andrew Bartram
26th November 2008, 06:01 PM
One very good method is to lay the wet (but not dripping) print, face up on a piece of glass or perspex. Tape the edges down with some of that brown gummy tape that has to be wetted before it works. Leave overnight.
Now the drawback to this method is that you will have to use a stanley knife to cut away the taped bits of the print but you do end up with a perfectly flat print. Another advantage is this method seems to avoid drydown.

Monoman
26th November 2008, 06:03 PM
I'd be very wary of applying heat, pressure and movement to a wet print, or even any one of the three. Over the years I've tried just about every method of drying fibre paper. This has been my experience - it may differ from yours!

Line hanging back to back leads to twisted curly prints. It's reputed to work better in cold damp rooms but unfortunately (or not) these are not desirable features of modern houses!

Apron driers sometimes work but usually cause other problems, especially if the prints have been wet for an extended period or, particularly, if you have used hypo clear, in which case they come out like a mohair jumper! And the fibres are embedded so the print is ruined, except as a warm sheet for your canine friend. However, when it's done right - shortish wet time and low temperature seem to be the key ingredients - drying this way enhances the shine of glossy papers, and increases the warmth of print tone, either or both of which may be a good or bad thing, depending on your point of view. Another very real danger is that any fixer evaporated from insufficiently washed prints will transfer itself to the apron and, from there, to each subsequent print you dry until you launder the apron.

Fibreglass screens produce curly prints, and laying prints face down on clean towels produces curly prints. The prints will be more or less curly depending from where on the paper roll the paper was cut. If from the outside of the roll you'll have less of a problem than if they were cut from nearer the core. None of these problems is terminal. Place the curly print between sheets of photographic (not office) blotting paper and leave under a pile of books for a few days. Or leave under a dry mounting press after applying a very little heat for a short time. There's even a method of drying prints between weighted blotting paper alone, though it requires replacing them between clean dry sheets every few hours until dry.

Never, ever 'break' a print over a straight edge. Damage is inevitable.

There is, in my experience, only one reliable way to get a perfectly flat print time after time with little effort and in about 12 hours. This involves taping it to a sheet of glass or perspex, and I'm indebted to Dave, who published the method on the East Midlands Group website. You'll find it here: http://www.emmgphoto.eclipse.co.uk/Useful%20information/Dave%20on%20drydown.html It works! Full stop. Leave the prints taped to the glass overnight, cut them free in the morning and you'll have a surface as flat as when the paper came out of the box - and no shrinkage!. I was simply amazed the first time I used it and can't recommend it highly enough. It costs the price of a roll of artists gummed tape (about a fiver) and something to tape them to. For smaller prints Tesco's glass kitchen counter protectors are ideal, about £2.99 if I remember rightly. Thanks Dave!

Bob
26th November 2008, 06:36 PM
Not tried many ways: Squeegee both sides once then face down on screens (face up for first hour or so if warmtone as the emulsion can get embossed while wet); in the hot press when dry.

Be careful with a warm-tone emulsion when it is still damp; I cemented a couple of prints to the matt-board I use to cushion the print from the platens when I tried to flatten damp MGWT-FB...

les dix
26th November 2008, 10:23 PM
What drives me up the wall about FB prints is the tendency to get creases in the paper. I wonder if this is sloppy technique on my part as I sometimes get them in RC paper as well when I use that.

Les

Dave miller
27th November 2008, 07:19 AM
What drives me up the wall about FB prints is the tendency to get creases in the paper. I wonder if this is sloppy technique on my part as I sometimes get them in RC paper as well when I use that.

Les

How do you think this happens Les'?

Dave miller
27th November 2008, 12:56 PM
Following Dick's link to the EMMG site below I've done a quick rewrite and posted the essay in our Article section.

Bob
27th November 2008, 03:03 PM
Only times I have damaged fibre paper enough to crease it are when it has fallen out of the tongs and landed edge first... Since getting the stainless steel types that grip the paper by spring action I can't remember ever dropping a print - they grip far better than the type you have to keep pressing together.

I'm also wondering how one manages to crease RC prints - that takes dedication! :)

les dix
27th November 2008, 04:55 PM
I'm also wondering how one manages to crease RC prints - that takes dedication

Thinking about it, the problem could be that I work in a tiny attic (the maximum height is less than 5 feet I think, I cannot stand upright in there) There is not really enough distance to be able to lift the print fully out of the dish and carefully maneouvre it into the next dish without a fair risk of it folding against a dish surface . I always thought this was just a problem in using FB paper but it seems like I need to look again at my darkroom set up.

Les

Bob
27th November 2008, 06:15 PM
Ah, that would explain it then: no draining room... I guess as you have to sit down anyway, you could lower the wet-bench even lower.

Another way to crease the paper I remember doing is if I bend the paper too far in the tongs (might be a particular problem with restricted head-room). You can get a crease across the paper doing that - particularly if you grip the corner of the paper in the tongs.

Bill
27th November 2008, 07:53 PM
And the cloth should be a fine muslin and not canvas.
Did you buy it new cos the cloth may have been changed for the wrong stuff.

Like Dave I've got a couple of these bought new, rarely used any more, and both have canvas cloths as do all the others I have seen.

Bill

Peter Hogan
10th December 2008, 07:02 PM
I’m surprised at your comments regarding the use of a FB print drier Rob. Are you referring to those dreadful curved heated plate things with a stretch canvas cover? I have one of these and it’s use guarantees me cockled paper edges that no amount of pressing will get rid of. I’ve used it less than ten times and consigned it to the junk cupboard a long time ago. I have several times considered ebaying it, but would not sleep easy at night if I did, thinking of the misery I may have inflicted on my fellow man.

I’m interested to hear of anyone else on this forum using one, and their experiences. Of course if anyone wants to buy one of these excellent pieces of equipment without which a darkroom may be considered deficient then please PM me. I have a pristine 16x12 unit that may even be double sided, giving the opportunity of ruining double the number of prints in one operation.

Just saw this... (I know, I know, but I get there in the end)
I use one of these dave, with great results! The secret is not to use heat - let the prints dry naturally. The cockling is because of the direction the paper is laid on the plate. The paper has fibres running longitudinally, and these need to run along the length of the platen, if you know what I mean. Short edge of the paper fore/aft, long edge left/right.

Give it a go.

Dave miller
10th December 2008, 07:17 PM
Just saw this... (I know, I know, but I get there in the end)
I use one of these dave, with great results! The secret is not to use heat - let the prints dry naturally. The cockling is because of the direction the paper is laid on the plate. The paper has fibres running longitudinally, and these need to run along the length of the platen, if you know what I mean. Short edge of the paper fore/aft, long edge left/right.

Give it a go.

But it cockles on all sides. :confused: It's heading for ebay. :)

RH Designs
10th December 2008, 07:57 PM
The flattest FB prints I've made have been dried slowly, face down on home-made drying screens. Almost flat enough not to need a minute or two in the dry-mount press. I did have one of those heated drier thingies but it was hopeless. I suppose I was using it wrongly, but I could never get a print out of it without frilly edges. I'm with Dave on that one.

Trevor Crone
10th December 2008, 08:05 PM
SNIP; I did have one of those heated drier thingies but it was hopeless. I suppose I was using it wrongly, but I could never get a print out of it without frilly edges. I'm with Dave on that one.

With these apron dryers I believe its important not to dry the FB print completely. I just give my prints 3 min. at 50*C. They are removed still damp but nice and flat, drying is completed between photographic blotters under weights. This results in very flat prints ready to mount.

Mike O'Pray
10th December 2008, 08:36 PM
Do FB prints stay flat after drying if they aren't mounted but left in a pack as my RC prints are and maybe placed in a wallet but essentially staying loose?

An observation, if I may be permitted and not an attempt to start a RC v FB contest but having read all this stuff and related problems, I now have to conclude that FB must have a unique feel and quality that may be worth striving for. Otherwise why bother. Nothing about the process seems easy.

Seems like it can be done with several possible pitfalls along the way but by golly you need to be dedicated.

Mike

Dave miller
10th December 2008, 08:50 PM
Do FB prints stay flat after drying if they aren't mounted but left in a pack as my RC prints are and maybe placed in a wallet but essentially staying loose?

An observation, if I may be permitted and not an attempt to start a RC v FB contest but having read all this stuff and related problems, I now have to conclude that FB must have a unique feel and quality that may be worth striving for. Otherwise why bother. Nothing about the process seems easy.

Seems like it can be done with several possible pitfalls along the way but by golly you need to be dedicated.

Mike

Correctly stored they will stay flat.
I often said that once behind glass it’s almost impossible to tell the difference between the two mediums, so the why bother is a valid question?
May I suggest it’s like comparing two outwardly identical pieces of furniture, one is solid wood and the other veneered. Viewed through a showroom window they may appear identical. Inside the showroom, where they can be touched, other senses come into play.

Mike O'Pray
11th December 2008, 12:43 AM
Interesting analogy Dave and it rings bells. It kind of suggests that it's in the very act of passing around a shoebox of prints for viewing in the pub/ at a drinks and nibbles get together that FB comes into its own, rather than hanging on the living room wall behind glass where FB longevity accepted( maybe), it is less pertinent.

What constitutes correct storage so that opening the shoebox in 5 years time or more means that the prints look as flat as at the end of the drying process after production?

Thanks

Mike

Dave miller
11th December 2008, 07:21 AM
Interesting analogy Dave and it rings bells. It kind of suggests that it's in the very act of passing around a shoebox of prints for viewing in the pub/ at a drinks and nibbles get together that FB comes into its own, rather than hanging on the living room wall behind glass where FB longevity accepted( maybe), it is less pertinent.

What constitutes correct storage so that opening the shoebox in 5 years time or more means that the prints look as flat as at the end of the drying process after production?

Thanks

Mike

Not quite but close. Different papers develop and tone differently, so it really is a case of trying as many as you can, and sorting out those that suit you, and your way of working. Many R/C papers tone better than FB for example, but "better" is in the mind.
As for storage I just lay mine flat in a box. Secol do a nice range of sleeving for those that really care. I also keep my "keepers" in sleeves.

Peter Hogan
11th December 2008, 07:51 AM
Hey Ho! Ademco dry press for me. Bulky and 'kin heavy, but it dries things flat. Very flat!

Mark Burley
13th December 2008, 08:48 AM
Where would one get an Ademco dry press then Peter?

I fancy having a go with that - but at the moment my FB paper dries under three sheets of interleaved blotting paper and three huge books and they usually stay under the whole lot for a week...

Mostly they come out pretty flat. I should have a go at the sticky tape idea I suppose - but I'm too mean to buy bigger sheets! :D

Dave miller
13th December 2008, 09:37 AM
Where would one get an Ademco dry press then Peter?

I fancy having a go with that - but at the moment my FB paper dries under three sheets of interleaved blotting paper and three huge books and they usually stay under the whole lot for a week...

Mostly they come out pretty flat. I should have a go at the sticky tape idea I suppose - but I'm too mean to buy bigger sheets! :D

Ebay, where else? :)

Peter Hogan
13th December 2008, 04:21 PM
I bought mine from a commercial photography business that was converting wholly to digital. Cost me about £130. E-bay is good, but try advertising for one in the photographic press. I would think a lot of people who have them won't advertise them thinkng that no-one wants them. (I chucked an A4 one in the dump last week.) Thay are well worth having, 'cos there's lots of other tricks you can use them for as well.

Dave miller
13th December 2008, 05:00 PM
I bought mine from a commercial photography business that was converting wholly to digital. Cost me about £130. E-bay is good, but try advertising for one in the photographic press. I would think a lot of people who have them won't advertise them thinkng that no-one wants them. (I chucked an A4 one in the dump last week.) Thay are well worth having, 'cos there's lots of other tricks you can use them for as well.

Like cracking walnuts at Christmas?:confused:

Sandeha Lynch
17th December 2008, 05:21 PM
The idea of the OP is clearly not without precedent, though you'd need to get hold of some Kodak Dry Mounting Tissue. This is from around 1920, so I wonder if they still make it ...

"Prints do not curl when mounted with .. Kodak Dry Mounting Tissue

Just the Tissue and a Flatiron

Dry Mounting Tissue is incomparable for album work. The leaves lie flat with perfect adhesion."

Source:
http://www.butkus.org/chinon/kodak/kodak_autograph_3a/kodak_autographic_3a.htm

darkroomTed
11th January 2009, 12:39 PM
I've just acquired an Ademco dry mounting press and it's just brilliant. In trials, even my really cockled-edged and warped prints have come out really flat when dry mounted.
Thanks Peter Hogan!
Ted

Niall Bell
12th January 2009, 12:45 PM
I've tried drying them hung up back to back- but they always stick togwether.

So, and this takes us back to the original post, I iron mine (FB only!). Face down, low setting (cooler than the cotton setting). Admittedly I need to be gentle, but it works fine.

However I iron them when dry, which I achieve by leaving face up on a table in room with cool but not cold temperature.

Niall.

darkroomTed
16th January 2009, 09:38 PM
Just spent my first darkroom evening since acquiring an Ademco press. Success!

For Ilford FB papers: Squeege down and peg up on line to dry off a little. Put on the dryer drum when still damp (as per Peter Hogan's instructions on this thread no 27), back of print to metal surface - image up against print blotting paper. Put dryer on minimum temperature for just 3 minutes then transfer print (should now be 2/3rds dry) to Ademco press. Put print between blotting paper sheets. No heat necessary on press, just use the pressure of the press for 24 hours.

For Kentmere FB (I'm using Document Art 3): Exactly as for Ilford FB except turn up heat on Dryer to mid-point and leave to cook for 3 mins.

For Forte Fortezo FB glossy: As for Kentmere except the print emulsion has to be against the metal of the dryer, backed with print blotting paper. I left them in for 4 minutes at mid-heat. The print must come out pretty dry otherwise the fluff from the blotting paper adheres to the damp print surface! I found out the hard way...

All three papers came out very, very flat.

Ted

Alfonso
24th September 2009, 03:52 PM
My method is quite simple. Firstly, I must said that my darkroom is a bathroom and after a printing sesion it has to be a bathroom again.

As soon as I get the prints out of the washing tray, I stick it to that piece of glass that separates the bath tub and protects from splashing (like the bath courtain but a kind of glassy material like a door) (sorry, but I don't know the English word for that thing :confused: ). Well, I place the print there. After some 20-30 minutes, the time I need to make another print, with the print still damp but without water on the print surface, I put it on top of a bath towel, emulsion on top, and leave it there overnight. Next day, the print will be flat with the edges sligthly upwards. Then it goes into a Salgado's book :rolleyes: , the size of my prints and then into its place in the library. The more prints I put in the book, the bigger is the preassure. I usually change the position of the prints inside the book. If I am in a hurry,as a print exchange, I take them out after one day. If not, I leave them there until I remember that I have some prints there :slap:

It works quite well.

Cheers

Martin Reed
1st October 2009, 05:53 PM
Just spent my first darkroom evening since acquiring an Ademco press. Success!......

........All three papers came out very, very flat.

Ted

It really is the only way if you want a reasonable throughput of prints. Only thing I think nobody mentioned, is immediately after withdrawing the print from the press put it under something weighty of similar dimensions as it cools, which minimises further curling. Such as a couple of large atlases, but cover the face of the print with some good quality paper or board, the same as should be used in the press.