Has anyone had purple fixer ?

[MarkWalker]

Recently I have been using an Alkali Fixer made by Fotospeed for film and paper (fibre and RC) and it's been fine. Preceding this query to you I had contacted Fotospeed technical help regarding the use of stop bath before the alkali fixer and I did what they recommend, which is a short (10-15 second dip) in their Odourless Stop (can be any other odourless which is ph neutral) with a water wash (20-30 seconds) before going into the Alkali Fixer. All good, makes sense.
Today, I had finished a print session all with fresh solutions for fibre paper, when I noticed that the Alkali Fixer had taken on a purple tint. As it is the first time I have come across this I thought I would throw it at you to see if there are similar experiences. The fixer was fresh at 1:4 and only had 10 prints through it: this was, however, the first time I had introduced the Odourless Stop followed by water bath, as previously I had just done a water stop. The Odourless Stop was/is still good - no hint of purple, and neither had the post stop water bath.
So, has anyone had purple fixer before ?

[Richard Gould]

Can't help you with purple fixer,never come across that, but how did you get any help from Fotospeed? I tried and failed last month,perhaps miracles still happen, maybe Larry, who is an expert on all things fotospeed, and solved my problem with Fotospeed Developer, can help you? Richard

[MarkWalker]

I spoke to the darkroom technical man at Fotospeed today, simply called their number (ext. 2 for Technical Help) and, for the second time I have enquired, he called me back in an hour with a discussion on what my exact process was and his thoughts. He is going to do a trial of his own and get back to me early next week. Excellent service. I will report back.

[Leo Stehlik]

Mark, I mix my own TF-2 alkali fixer, and use 2-bath fixing method for both FB and RC prints. I've had a purple fixer just recently, wondered where that came from.

The only other thing I have changed in my process was that instead using 1+19 diluted Fomacitro stop bath, I replaced it with (quite old) 1+39 Ilford IN-1 stop bath that was sitting in my cupboard for ages.

My observation was that the first TF-2 bath get more purple over the time then the second one.

When I switched back (for a test) to 1+19 Fomacitro stop bath, it was all back to normal, no purple fixer! Therefore I conclude this may have something to do with the stop bath.

[Larry]

Hi Mark

I too use Fotospeed chemistry and have never had a problem with it changing colour or causing problems on my finished prints. I'm still using a 5-Litre bottle I had for about 18months and it's still good as new.

Perhaps the dilution was too strong (I always use 1+19/25 or slightly weaker or maybe your subsequent fixer was to concentrated.

My process is always between as follows: Temp between 20-22C in a Nova tank.

Fotospeed RCVC (2min 20secs) with WT10, then Fotospeed Odourless stop 30secs with 15sec constant agitation and the other 15secs just sitting there and then transfer to fotospeed odourless fixer for 90secs. Never a problem.

I NEVER re-use chemistry (FILM & PRINTS) always one-shot processing, a bit more expensive but it really gives great results and eliminates contaminated liquids.

In the past, for the little FB printing I've done, I always use the same chemistry as if it was RC, just adjusting my processing time.

Larry

[cliveh]

The likely cause may well be the stop, because if it is an acidic indicator stop bath, which is usually yellow, it is designed to turn purple as the ph eventually changes from the alkali dev carry-over. If this same stop is being carried over to an alkali solution it will turn purple. It really defeats the purpose of using a stop bath if you don’t use an acid fix, as one of the functions of a stop bath is to preserve the longevity of the fix. My advice would be to use an acid fix.

[MarkWalker]

Leo and Cliveh, yes I think it may be a stop bath issue of carrying over the indicator (it's the first time I have tried the combination), but Fotospeed are looking into it as it's new to them. Cliveh, the purpose of using the odourless stop, as I described, is that it is neutral ph, therefore, there is no acidity in the chain of processing. As you allude this could still be the cause, however, in that there is a change in ph that could enable the carry over.
As recommended by Fotospeed I do a brief stop bath dunk to arrest development followed by a water bath to preserve the life of the alkali fix - which is not as robust as an acid fixer which is why acid fix prevails in the market. I have been using acid fix for 30 years with no problems, but, having only read about it in the past year, I am trying alkali now because of the reduced wash times for fibre paper, especially as I am in a soft water area - which, I believe, can require significantly longer washing than in hard water.
Now, I know alot of this tinkering with technique can seem futile, but it's interesting and it might just stick, which is why I am so pleased to be a part of this knowledge sharing community. Thankyou.

[Akki14]

Odourless Stop isn't neutral pH to my knowledge. It's just citric acid based (usually) and not acetic acid based (which makes normal stopbath reek of vinegar).
Distilled or deionised water is pretty close to neutral. Tap water depending on where you are is slightly alkaline in hard water areas anyway. I'd just use a frequently changed tray of water as stop.

I shall also point out that fotospeed's own website says it's a citric acid based stop bath
http://www.fotospeed.com/Fotospeed-Stop-Bath-&-Wash-Rinse-Aids/products/123/
"An odourless citric acid stop bath with indicator dye to warn of exhaustion. "

[Miha]

An acid (citric) stop bath is mandatory even when using alkaline fixer. A good alkaline fixer is well buffered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_solution), so it exhaust much earlier than it becomes acidic. This is what Wolfgang Moersch told me in our correspondence (another company with great customer service, by the way).

[MarkWalker]

Akki144 and cliveh, I am so stupid, of course the stop bath is acidic (citric), I've been doing alot of reading about fixers and stops and got momentarily befuddled. The gist of what may be happening is the same, however, and by using water bath after the stop (to reduce acid solution, doh) before the fix does lengthen the life of the alkali fix. I am clear, just got 'forum fever'.

[Larry]

Hi Mark,

In case you missed it on the fotospeed website, he is the link for the Health & safety data sheet which confirms the PH value is greater than netural depending on whether it's diluted or not.

It's a pdf file 3 pages - quite informative.

http://www.fotospeed.com/pdf/safety/MSDS_SB50_Od_less_St_Bath.pdf

Hope this helps with the technical specs.

cheers
Larry

[Miha]

It's a pdf file 3 pages - quite informative.

http://www.fotospeed.com/pdf/safety/MSDS_SB50_Od_less_St_Bath.pdf

Hope this helps with the technical specs.

Why on earth do they put Formaldehyde in stop bath?:eek:

[Trevor Crone]

Why on earth do they put Formaldehyde in stop bath?:eek:

To inhibit/prevent fungal growth - a problem with citric acid stop baths.

[Miha]

To inhibit/prevent fungal growth - a problem with citric acid stop baths.

You are right Trevor, but it seems that Ilford, Tetenal etc. care more about health and safety than keeping properties.:rolleyes:

Formaldehyde was banned and replaced by Ethanol even from zoological collections years ago. The answer from my colleagues was that using Formaldehyde was simply to risky.

EDIT: besides, it acts as a hardener.

[Trevor Crone]

You are right Trevor, but it seems that Ilford, Tetenal etc. care more about health and safety than keeping properties.:rolleyes:

Formaldehyde was banned and replaced by Ethanol even from zoological collections years ago. The answer from my colleagues was that using Formaldehyde was simply to risky.

EDIT: besides, it acts as a hardener.

Yes, we use to use in the Bio labs to preserve biological specimens until it was recommended to use ethanol + glycerin as a much safer alternative.

Formaldehyde is extremely irritating to the respiratory system and eyes.

[MarkWalker]

Thankyou, everyone for your interest in this and for Leo, I hope to get to the bottom of this and post the findings as there must be some common factor. Previously, I had stated that I had an acid free process run, but that in this case I obviously hadn't. What muddled me was that until a few weeks ago this was the case because I was trying Peter Hogan's Alkali Stop (monochromephotography.com). This is a good product that I may return to, but I was trying the citric stop bath for its better economy as I can see that with my recently permanent darkroom I will be printing a lot more than in the past.
Sorry for the confusion in the first place but maybe you know how it is when you discover something else and you put on hold 30 years of practice to try it out. Also, my 5 year sojourn with digital has dwindled from about 75% to 10% of my output so I am re-honing my darkroom skills and am a little like the bull in the candy store, (intentional mixed metaphore).

[Dave miller]

Am I alone in using a couple of plain water rinses as a stop bath for both film and paper. I accept that this is more of a slow down and stop bath, but it works. The only time I would use a chemical stop bath is when Lith printing.

[Trevor Crone]

Am I alone in using a couple of plain water rinses as a stop bath for both film and paper. I accept that this is more of a slow down and stop bath, but it works. The only time I would use a chemical stop bath is when Lith printing.

No, I use just plain water with film but still use an acid stop for paper - although this is much weaker than the manufacturers recommendation - I discard it after each printing session.

[Jon Butler]

No your not alone I do the same, only use stop for lith printing.
JON

[Richard Gould]

Dave , For printing I use plain water stop bath,as you say, it works, and I have been known to use water for film as well, the only reason I have recently been using a chemical stop recently is that I was sent some in an order by mistake a couple of years ago, it should have been fixer and Firstcall did'nt want the stuff back, and I got my fixer, so I do sometimes use it,when I can be bothered to mix it,Richard

[Akki14]

Hi Mark,

In case you missed it on the fotospeed website, he is the link for the Health & safety data sheet which confirms the PH value is greater than netural depending on whether it's diluted or not.

It's a pdf file 3 pages - quite informative.

http://www.fotospeed.com/pdf/safety/MSDS_SB50_Od_less_St_Bath.pdf

Hope this helps with the technical specs.

cheers
Larry

Can I point out that neutral pH is 7 and 1 is quite acidic? It says in diluted form that it has a pH of 2.0-3.0 I assume that's due to variances in diluting water pH. It is still acidic. If you want a non-acidic workflow you use water either filtered, purified in some way or just from the tap.

[RH Designs]

I just used Fotospeed FX30 fixer for the first time (hitherto always Ilford fixers), following a development in Rodinal and stop in Kodak stop bath and guess what? The used fixer now has a delicate lilac tint to it. My guess would be carried-over indicator from the stop bath. The films look fine anyway which is the main thing. I note from the fixer packaging that SB50 odourless stop is advised so I may get some of that for next time.

[Rob Archer]

The likely cause may well be the stop, because if it is an acidic indicator stop bath, which is usually yellow, it is designed to turn purple as the ph eventually changes from the alkali dev carry-over. If this same stop is being carried over to an alkali solution it will turn purple. It really defeats the purpose of using a stop bath if you don’t use an acid fix, as one of the functions of a stop bath is to preserve the longevity of the fix. My advice would be to use an acid fix.

......or simply a water rinse between developer and fix. Cheaper and IME just as effective.

Rob

[MarkWalker]

I have used water rinses before for film and RC paper, but the decision to use stop with fibre paper followed by a water rinse before the alkaline fixer was to prolong the life of the alkaline fix, which is not as robust as acid. This followed from Fotospeeds advice.
Now, we can argue the efficacy of this technique in terms of what amount of developer/stop solution or different ph level is carried over into the fix and it may be that I really don't need a stop bath solution. What matters is that the whole process works, and my quest at the moment is to get effective use of alkali fix because of the benefits of reduced wash times and removal of residual acidity in the process, which is advantageous in the washing cycle particularly when toning during the same session. I'm not saying this way is better than another way, because we have our own valid approaches and I occassionally may try something different that you guys may suggest, such as when I first found there was a ready made alkali fix on the market.

As a side note I have noticed that Rollei have introduced RXN Odourless (neutral not alkali) fixer that is £3 cheaper than Fotospeed.(Firstcall, Taunton).

If I find the alkali route to be not as effective -or as roughly economical - I shall return to the methods I have used for 30 years, (I use to make archival photographic records when I worked in museums) perhaps with some of the tweaks that have been put forwards from you fine fellows.
P.S. I have found that an alkali fix solution of 1:9 or 7 is not very satisfactory for working life and that 1:4 gives much better economy and useful life, (measured with clearing of film).

[Dave miller]

I have used water rinses before for film and RC paper, but the decision to use stop with fibre paper followed by a water rinse before the alkaline fixer was to prolong the life of the alkaline fix, which is not as robust as acid. This followed from Fotospeeds advice.
Now, we can argue the efficacy of this technique in terms of what amount of developer/stop solution or different ph level is carried over into the fix and it may be that I really don't need a stop bath solution. What matters is that the whole process works, and my quest at the moment is to get effective use of alkali fix because of the benefits of reduced wash times and removal of residual acidity in the process, which is advantageous in the washing cycle particularly when toning during the same session. I'm not saying this way is better than another way, because we have our own valid approaches and I occassionally may try something different that you guys may suggest, such as when I first found there was a ready made alkali fix on the market.

As a side note I have noticed that Rollei have introduced RXN Odourless (neutral not alkali) fixer that is £3 cheaper than Fotospeed.(Firstcall, Taunton).

If I find the alkali route to be not as effective -or as roughly economical - I shall return to the methods I have used for 30 years, (I use to make archival photographic records when I worked in museums) perhaps with some of the tweaks that have been put forwards from you fine fellows.
P.S. I have found that an alkali fix solution of 1:9 or 7 is not very satisfactory for working life and that 1:4 gives much better economy and useful life, (measured with clearing of film).

I too feel that the use of alkaline fixer is preferable and should be coupled to an alkaline stop bath, if you wish to use one. The only company producing an alkaline stopbath that I am aware of is Monochrome Photography with their Alkali Stop (http://www.monochromephotography.com/photo_3401797.html), which you may wish to try. Does anyone else know of an alternative?

[MarkWalker]

Dave, I have used the Alkali Stop from Monochrome, but when I had a clear out and wash of some of my bottles I mistakenly poured my remaining solution down the plug hole (##it) and haven't justified the £17 (?) cost of replacing yet as I'm going down this Odourless stop (which I also had in) and water bath route. They do claim it is the worlds only Alkali stop and my brief use of it showed me that it is a good product. For example, I used it with 4 films and, although I don't normally cross film and paper solutions, the same solution for a 30 odd print run. On the last print I did the suggested test of inspecting the print after one minute in the stop under a white light and the image remained fine with a very slight yellowing that cleared in the fix and wash, so probably much working life left. Recommend it, although slightly pricey.
Regards.

[Dave miller]

Dave, I have used the Alkali Stop from Monochrome, but when I had a clear out and wash of some of my bottles I mistakenly poured my remaining solution down the plug hole (##it) and haven't justified the £17 (?) cost of replacing yet as I'm going down this Odourless stop (which I also had in) and water bath route. They do claim it is the worlds only Alkali stop and my brief use of it showed me that it is a good product. For example, I used it with 4 films and, although I don't normally cross film and paper solutions, the same solution for a 30 odd print run. On the last print I did the suggested test of inspecting the print after one minute in the stop under a white light and the image remained fine with a very slight yellowing that cleared in the fix and wash, so probably much working life left. Recommend it, although slightly pricey.
Regards.

It's £13 according to the link I gave; still much dearer than water, but quicker. :)

[Miha]

As a side note I have noticed that Rollei have introduced RXN Odourless (neutral not alkali) fixer..

According to the link bellow it's an alkaline fixer:
http://www.macodirect.de/rollei-neutralbr5-liter-pi-204.html

I still think that an alkaline fixer exhaust before it becomes acidic as it is buffered. I'm willing to perform a test at our histolab where I have access to an electronic pH meter. I will measure the acidity of 100 ml of alkaline fixer (Moersch or RXN) at working strength and than adding Ilfostop at 1+19 to it starting with one ml. This data can then be interpolated to our darkroom practice.

I'm also open to ideas on how to improve this testing procedure, but please give me some time as I have no alkaline fixer at hand right now.

[MarkWalker]

Thanks, Miha for offering to do a test that could prove interesting regarding the mix of acid and alkali, I wonder if you will end up with purple fixer ?

Regarding the Rollei RXN I think they indicate that it is ever so slightly acidic , to quote, ''extremely low acidic content is harmless to the paper base'', and then in German -why not in the English bit ? - pH 6.9-7.0 (practically neutral, marginally acidic). Anyway, it's not a traditional acid fix.
2 things I found interesting on the data sheet were : the time of 2 minutes for fibre paper fix at 1:4 ( the Fotospeed Alkali is 4 minutes), and; that they recommend acid fixer for film, which I can't fathom.

[Miha]

2 things I found interesting on the data sheet were : the time of 2 minutes for fibre paper fix at 1:4 ( the Fotospeed Alkali is 4 minutes), and; that they recommend acid fixer for film, which I can't fathom.
Maybe the Rollei is more concentrated? I don't know as Maco/Rollei doesn't list the amount of ammonium thiosulphate in their MSDS. But comparing Fotospeed to Moersch ATS alkali fixer, the later is stronger (20-50% of ammonium thiosulphate vs 65-70%) and it fixes in one minute.

Fotospeed: http://www.fotospeed.com/pdf/safety/MSDS_F_S_FX30_Odourless_Fix.pdf
Moersch: http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/moersch/Moersch_ATS_Alkaline_Fixer.pdf

[Miha]

After digging a bit further into the matter, I've came across several German photo forums where one can read about complaints of various users regarding some German made fixer which would die suddenly without any warning effects like smell of ammonia and cruds floating in the solution...I'v also read reports about bronzing of RC prints after using this particular fixer.

The fixer has been since reformulater and there is one German retailer advertising the new, reformulated version of the fixer, containing no hardener (I newer knew there was hardener in there) resulting in prints with no brown stains!

Anyway, these are only assumptions dating back to the 90s, but they somehow encourage me that sticking solely to Ilford RC paper might not be the only safe route, or should I say 'it is too narrow an agenda'.:)

I should have add that I have been using this particular fixer for a short period that coincidence with the problems I've experienced with some of the RC papers.

[Peter Hogan]

Only just found this thread, so apologies for the lateness.
The purple tint in the fixer is from the dye used in the manufacture of the film. Basically, it's a light-inhibiting dye because the larger, flat silver grains now used are too sensitive to light. It's water soluble, but won't wash out in just a short wash. The fixer, if kept for re-use, will return to a normal colour after a day or so. The dye doesn't affect it. The purple satin can also be seen in the negative if the washing hasn't been complete. Ilford say it won't affect printing, but I have my own thoughts on that.
Stop-wise, I use my own alkali stop for prints, and a couple of water rinses for film.