Why 4x5 - Another in my "I'm just curious" series...

[Argentum]

I'm curious as to why others made the move to 4x5 and perhaps even more curious why others made the move to 8x10?
I'm also curious as to whether each of you found that you achieved the benefit from the move that you expected and whether you thought 8x10 would have been better than 4x5?

[Trevor Crone]

Rob, I moved initially to 6x9cm view cameras because I was getting frustrated by fixed lens camera systems. Now I know some systems offer shift lenses ( I have a 35mm shift lens for my OM1) but these are limited in the amount of movements offered and are only available in a couple of focal lengths. Basically it was down to image management at the taking stage. I soon desired the greater control offered by processing single sheet film. Although I had several backs they are still not quite as flexible as single sheets. Plus I love making contact prints and 4x5 is ok for this. Which leads me onto going up to 8x10, this was purely so I can produce larger contact prints and after attending a wonderful platinum and palladium workshop run by Ian Leake I was well and truly hooked and on a road of no return.

I should mention that I have no interest in producing larger negatives by enlargement. I want to do it in camera.

Now if only I can figure out how to transport a 20x24" around town?:D

[Sandeha Lynch]

Movements, pure and simple. OK, so there's also the advantage of shooting single sheets (when that's not a disadvantage, that is ;)) but being able to control and maximise the defocus areas was of prime importance to me.

A better scan would show this more strongly I think, but this is still the best example of focus plane manipulation that I've done. (I think.)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a119/Sandeha/still_life/th_cutting_teeth.jpg (http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a119/Sandeha/still_life/cutting_teeth.jpg)

[Dave miller]

When I brought me first 5x4 I guess I was still on digital recoil, and wanted to get back to basics and start afresh. It’s a good way to slow down after machine gunning with a 35mm power drive. I’ve since brought a 10 x 8 because I’m attracted to various alternate processes that require contact printing, and I found 5x4 too small for that.

[Argentum]

Now if only I can figure out how to transport a 20x24" around town?:D

No excuses, Lotus provide a trolly for doing exactly that:

http://www.lotusviewcamera.at/popups/image20x24.html

The Kawsaki Mule is also perfect. The camera can be mounted on the flat back and you just manouvre the quad to get your shot. And it will drive up any mountain to any location.

http://www.kawasaki.co.uk/product.asp?Id=3404B738008

Go on, get yourself a nice little Christmas present:D

[Bob]

For me 5x4 is the sweet-spot. Small enough to carry around in a rucksack and the enlargers are widely available and fit in a normal room. If it were not for movements I think I'd just stick with MF as at the sizes I enlarge (12x16 is usually the max) I doubt there is much in it tonally between 6x6cm and 5x4".

8x10 has the downside that I don't see an 8x10 enlarger in my future so I would be restricted to contact printing. Which is not, I hasten to add a deal-breaker, but it does limit my options over what I can do with 5x4.

[B&W Neil]

I'm curious as to why others made the move to 4x5 and perhaps even more curious why others made the move to 8x10?
I'm also curious as to whether each of you found that you achieved the benefit from the move that you expected and whether you thought 8x10 would have been better than 4x5?

I acquired a 4x5 to play around with contact printing and POP work. But at the same time got tempted, and side-tracked, by the low price of a nice De Vere 504 (with MG Head) so I added the option to enlarge my 4x5 negs at a later stage if I wanted to. To date this hasn't happened as I remain mainly interested in POP and other alternative contact printing processes.

Moving to 8x10 - a possibility later but only after I have mastered a few things :cool:

I would say I have achieved a reasonable start with my 4x5 and POP work but have a lot still to achieve with the other alternative processes I wish to try.

For me I would say starting with a 4x5 was the best move but I can now see the attraction of acquiring a 8x10 at some future date to do larger contact printing work with an 8x10 neg.

Neil.

[Trevor Crone]

I acquired a 4x5 to play around with contact printing and POP work. But at the same time got tempted, and side-tracked, by the low price of a nice De Vere 504 (with MG Head) so I added the option to enlarge my 4x5 negs at a later stage if I wanted to. To date this hasn't happened as I remain mainly interested in POP and other alternative contact printing processes.

Moving to 8x10 - a possibility later but only after I have mastered a few things :cool:

I would say I have achieved a reasonable start with my 4x5 and POP work but have a lot still to achieve with the other alternative processes I wish to try.

For me I would say starting with a 4x5 was the best move but I can now see the attraction of acquiring a 8x10 at some future date to do larger contact printing work with an 8x10 neg.

Neil.

Neil, how are your stocks of POP? I'm down to my last 30 sheets of 5x7". I emailed Simon R. Galley of Ilford and he informed me they are still working on the product with a view to reintroduce it. It's great stuff and I just hope it makes a return.

[Trevor Crone]

No excuses, Lotus provide a trolly for doing exactly that:

http://www.lotusviewcamera.at/popups/image20x24.html

The Kawsaki Mule is also perfect. The camera can be mounted on the flat back and you just manouvre the quad to get your shot. And it will drive up any mountain to any location.

http://www.kawasaki.co.uk/product.asp?Id=3404B738008

Go on, get yourself a nice little Christmas present:D

If I buy one more camera I think the wife will divorce me:(

[B&W Neil]

Neil, how are your stocks of POP? I'm down to my last 30 sheets of 5x7". I emailed Simon R. Galley of Ilford and he informed me they are still working on the product with a view to reintroduce it. It's great stuff and I just hope it makes a return.

Trevor, not many sheets left so will have to re-stock when I get started again. Hopefully the supply problem will have eased by then.

Neil.

[Martin Aislabie]

I jumped straight from 35mm (OM1 & 2) to a 5x4 Ebony

Originally I had intended to do MF as an intermediate stepping stone to LF but when I talked it through with my wife she asked why bother with MF

I explained that with my then current kit I could move up to MF without re-equipping the darkroom.

However, realistically the camera kit for MF isn't so different in price to that of 5x4.

Wifey then told me to stop mucking about and just do it - go straight to 5x4.

I wanted something larger than 35mm to get better print quality - I like large prints (12x16 is about as far as I feel comfortable with 35mm) and the reported smoother tones associated with larger negs.

I wanted 5x4 to get the camera movements.

Backpacking a 5x4 complete with associated kitchen sink is do-able pretty much anywhere, although the going can be quite slow - or it is when my back is not playing up

I am interested in why people moved up to 10x8 - a size which has always puzzled me.

10x8 enlargers are monstrous things and need a huge room with a very firm floor to sit on - but they are a bit on the small size for contact prints (but that’s probably just me)

Something silly like a 12x20 though - now that really does wet my appetite - but how the heck I could get it to my favourite photographic locations (on the Pennine Way and Fells of Northern England) plus reload the huge Darkslides somewhere other than a darkroom, is something I am still pondering.

It will be quite a few years before I dare suggest another even bigger/very much more expensive camera though.

Martin

[Trevor Crone]

SNIP; I am interested in why people moved up to 10x8 - a size which has always puzzled me.

10x8 enlargers are monstrous things and need a huge room with a very firm floor to sit on - but they are a bit on the small size for contact prints (but that’s probably just me)

Something silly like a 12x20 though - now that really does wet my appetite - but how the heck I could get it to my favourite photographic locations (on the Pennine Way and Fells of Northern England) plus reload the huge Darkslides somewhere other than a darkroom, is something I am still pondering.Martin

Martin, I moved to 8x10 so that I can produce larger contact prints then the 4x5's I occasionally do. It's probably a bit of a compromise, lots of things in life are, between, size, costs and portability. I think my ideal camera for making contact prints would be an 11x14 but the logistics is something else, these are much larger and more problematic to cart around town. Also the running costs are much more, film and the film holders are quite expensive. Finding lenses with enough coverage to allow for movements is a bit of a headache and possibly wallet ache.:(

Why does 8x10 puzzle you?

[Dave miller]

Martin, I can't put it any better than Trevor already has.

[Martin Aislabie]

Martin, I moved to 8x10 so that I can produce larger contact prints then the 4x5's I occasionally do. It's probably a bit of a compromise, lots of things in life are, between, size, costs and portability. I think my ideal camera for making contact prints would be an 11x14 but the logistics is something else, these are much larger and more problematic to cart around town. Also the running costs are much more, film and the film holders are quite expensive. Finding lenses with enough coverage to allow for movements is a bit of a headache and possibly wallet ache.:(

Why does 8x10 puzzle you?

Trevor, you’re probably right – 10x8 is probably the largest practical size for anything out doors

10x8 cameras while very large are certainly not the enormous beasts that the larger format cameras are.

Which means they can be backpacked – just about – if not too far

Plus you have a selection of lenses that cover the format - anything bigger than 10x8 and suddenly the choice is almost none existent.

As for the price of lenses with the huge coverage required - they are eye watering.

When you put it like that 10x8 does make more sense.

Martin :)

[Martin Aislabie]

For those who have 10x8s :-

1) How do you carry/move them about (other than in the car - obviously)

2) Typically how far do you take them

I am reminded of the quote from one of the Westons (Cole ?) “There is nothing worth photographing move than 800 yards from the car”

Just curious

Martin

[Trevor Crone]

For those who have 10x8s :-

1) How do you carry/move them about (other than in the car - obviously)

2) Typically how far do you take them

I am reminded of the quote from one of the Westons (Cole ?) “There is nothing worth photographing move than 800 yards from the car”

Just curious

Martin

Martin, attached is a pic of my all terrain carrier (Lowepro Super Trekker on shopping trolley cart). For more about town trips I use a large holdall which I carry over my shoulder for short distances, for going further afield I attach it to a Kata Insert Trolley.

At a guess I suppose I'll travel about a 1/2 mile (1 mile return) when using one of the trolleys.

Its certainly not as discrete as transporting 4x5 gear.

[Martin Aislabie]

Trevor, the trolley is a nice idea

How many Darkslides do you take and how do you process the film ?

Thanks

Martin

[outremer]

I recently, this week actually, decided to bit the bullet and buy a 4x5 camera. The reason for me was a simple one based on artistic considerations. That is that the format slows down the process of composition so much that my results, by virtue of the endeavour to set up a shot, will force me to look at a scene from its artistic value. If it isn't right I don't release the shutter.

This for me is a mindful decision to eradicate those spontaneous shots and the lucky snaps. I could achieve the same using medium format but the fact that I can only load on negative at a time (and the cost of it) really does make consider and review everything before a dark slide even approaches the camera.

After working at photography from a commercial perspective for a number of years the 4x5 process really is a just a different and more enjoyable way of working that the digital shot now - edit later conveyor belt I had become use to. That said I will not be abandoning my medium format all together.

[Victor Krag]

"""That said I will not be abandoning my medium format all together. "" Okay.. it seems like you know what you're doing, but to abandon MF altogether ? 35mm can go places MF can't go... hand-held MF can go places MF w/tripod can't go (though shooting faster than 1/60th won't get you much DOF)... tripod MF can go places 4x5 can't go (like by a precipice where a dark cloth can be a little scary or a slightly drizzly day or a very windy day where again, dark cloth focusing in not always practical... 4x5 is fantastic in the right environment, but in the evening soon after sunset, in the nice soft light that I like so much, I find it really difficult to focus the Tech IV in such low light even at f5.6. I love the Nikon 35mm, Minolta Autocord, Mamiya RB67 and Tech IV, but the RB67 is really my main camera if I want a high resolution negative within 15 seconds of unfolding the tripod. I can hike a good distance with the RB already on the tripod, but I would not leave the 4x5 attached and then hoist the tripod it over my shoulder for a long walk. Each camera has it's purpose, I'm always considering getting a back RB body for the future when my current wears out.

[Victor Krag]

"""That said I will not be abandoning my medium format all together. "" '''Okay.. it seems like you know what you're doing, but to abandon MF altogether ?''''''' Yikes! Man, did I read THAT wrong.. I'm glad you won't be abandoning your MF gear .. need more coffee please.

[Bob]

"""That said I will not be abandoning my medium format all together. "" '''Okay.. it seems like you know what you're doing, but to abandon MF altogether ?''''''' Yikes! Man, did I read THAT wrong.. I'm glad you won't be abandoning your MF gear .. need more coffee please.
BTW - you have an hour to edit any existing threads after you post them - saved me a few times! ;)

[outremer]

My apologies - Head works faster than the fingers.

I take your point regarding different formats for different purposes - I agree. My point was that I decided to return to 4x5 to get away from my own sloppy lazy habits that have evolved over the years while trying to turn images out for others. Especially from using digital.

The 35mm and the MF are still at hand for the purposes you described but where at all possible 4x5 will be my number one weapon of choice.

[Victor Krag]

Thanks Bob, good to know.. wow, one could almost manipulate reality that way.. sorta like.. digital..:D

[Martin Aislabie]

Using a 5x4 View Camera has been a lot more fun than I ever imagined.

The thing I have really like about 5x4 is the way its forces you to slow down.

Others had told me it would change my approach to photography, I just didn’t appreciate by quite how much

Now I look much more carefully at a scene and then for a strong likelihood of good light before taking the camera out.

I have also learned to put the camera away again without taking a photograph because the subject or the light just were not special enough to waste a shot

Early on I was frequently being caught out by choosing a scene based on what the light is now, not what it will probably be like in 20 to 30mins (when I will be ready to shoot)

I have 12 Darkslides and have only once used them all in a single days shooting.

I can now have a good day with the camera and come back with only 3 or 4 Darkslides exposed

For me it’s not the cost of the film that stops me from shooting, it is the length of time required to process the Negs.

Processing only 4 at a time and taking about 1hr start to finish eats up a lot of time, if like me you can only do them in occasional batches

I seem to have a much higher hit rate of Negs that are worth printing, so I probably cut out more of the duds by being more selective in the first place.

LF is very addictive and I am well and truly hooked

Martin

[Victor Krag]

That's great Martin. Was it a Shen Hao that you bought? Re: processing, I first started with trays, which was fine, though not so quick with a quantity of negs and in the wash tray I found some corners scratching emulsions - not good. So I invested a chunk of change into Combi Plan tanks.. I can do 12 sheets at a time with the same quant of dev and time it would take to dev 4 or 6 sheets in the same tank. I have three: dev tank, soak and stop tank, fix and wash tank. The six slots of the film rack are designed to hold 6 sheets total, but with 4x5 nylon window screen between the back to back sheets, one can fit 2 sheets for every slot, emulsion out. A local Monterey photog Ryuijie told me about it some years ago and I found more info online, too. Works great, takes about the same amount of time to load the dev rack as loading 6 holders.

[LeeTurner]

I did the usual route of 35mm, MF then 4x5. Besides the benefits of movements, slower working time and larger negs my largest gain was that my film developing knowledge increased greatly. When developing roll film I could never be sure if a bad neg was down to exposure or development and often ended up with a confusing mix of pictures on one roll. With LF I always take at least two photographs of the same scene and develop them separately. This has really helped me understand how to vary the development process to give different results. It also helps as a safeguard when I mess up!

In terms of transporting the cameras I use an old MPP technical camera when walking lost distances and a Horseman LX when it's under 1 mile. Both fit quite happily in a Lowepro backpack.

[Martin Aislabie]

Victor, after a great deal lot of thought and soul searching I jumped straight in with an Ebony 45S – and just love it :)


I am very curious about your ability to process 12 negs at a time in a Combi Plan Tank

I too use a Combi Plan Tank – would you care to explain your technique more fully?

I have a set of four of them and line them up in a production line, the first pre-filled with Dev, the second with Stop, the third with Fix and the final one with the first wash water.

I then load a cassette with film and dunk it in the first pre-filled tank and pop the top on.

Then when the time is up (again in the dark) I pop the top off and move the cassette into the Stop Tank and then into the Fix Tank.

Because my darkroom isn’t really dark enough to handle film in the open I have to wait for night before starting and have occasionally been known to work through until dawn to help clear the backlog :o

Martin

[Mike Meal]

I am very curious about your ability to process 12 negs at a time in a Combi Plan Tank

Ive read somewhere that you can load each sheet back to back, I'm sure Victor will be able to shed more light on this though.

[Dave miller]

Ive read somewhere that you can load each sheet back to back, I'm sure Victor will be able to shed more light on this though.

On the 10/3/9 Victor said
"The six slots of the film rack are designed to hold 6 sheets total, but with 4x5 nylon window screen between the back to back sheets, one can fit 2 sheets for every slot, emulsion out."

An explanation, or illustration of "nylon window screen" would be helpful Victor; it's not something I'm familiar with.

[Mike Meal]

From Bob Salomon (HP USA) -
'The Univ. of Montana taught cutting a piece of fiberglass window screen to the size of the film and making a sandwich of two sheets of film with the screen between them. In any case back to back processing only works with B&W film and you must make sure you load the film back to back. Never emulsion to emulsion or emulsion to back.'

Like Dave, I'm still not sure what is meant by 'window screen'?

[Dave miller]

From Bob Salomon (HP USA) -
'The Univ. of Montana taught cutting a piece of fiberglass window screen to the size of the film and making a sandwich of two sheets of film with the screen between them. In any case back to back processing only works with B&W film and you must make sure you load the film back to back. Never emulsion to emulsion or emulsion to back.'

Like Dave, I'm still not sure what is meant by 'window screen'?

I'm guessing that it is what we call "fly screen", perforated nylon mesh used here as a spacer.

[Bill]

This seems to be the stuff but in black fibreglass.

http://www.newblinds.co.uk/content/fly_screen_mesh_3640/

Could also be used to make print drying screens if fitted to suitable frames.

Bill

[Argentum]

I tried doing 12 sheets in a combi plan back to back but with nothing between the sheets. They stuck together, were a bugger to get apart and a nightmare to wash afterwards because nothing was removed from the back of the film during processing.

I can see that mesh dividers might well improve that but I rekon you will have fun trying to load that lot in the dark without scratching the film.

[Victor Krag]

Yes, the paper produced out of Univ Montana is the same as told to me by Ryuijie. The screen I use is the very same that I built my print drying racks with. Here, across the pond, it's a very dark grey nylon plastic mesh made of tiny molded squares that measure 1.5 mm square. I cut off 2mm all the way around so that it's just inside the 4x5 film edges.

As I load the Combi rack, I take a sheet out of the holder, hold it by the edges between fingers so the film is slightly concaved and emulsion toward the palm of my hand, then place a piece of the mesh against the film back, then take another sheet out of holder and place it's back against the mesh, then put both sheets together through the orange plastic film guide to slide into the slot closest to the center of the rack. Those are sheets from Holder 1A&B usually.

I get by with 3 tanks. #1 Dev tank, #2 Water soak then empty of water then pour in Stop while film is devving, #3 Fix tank is the only one with capped drain plugs on top and on bottom so to use as hose hook-up wash tank and replug for Photo Flo bath. ----http://www.newblinds.co.uk/content/fly_screen_mesh_3640/--looks like it !

[Victor Krag]

I should really clear this up:: ""As I load the Combi rack, I take a sheet out of the holder, hold it by the edges between fingers so the film is slightly concaved and emulsion toward the palm of my hand,"" should've read ---hold it by the edges between index finger and thumb edges so the film is slightly concaved and emulsion toward the palm of my hand--- I use my left hand that's holding the film and mesh to keep in place with pressure the holder, while getting out the B Side sheet of film.

And btw, I've tried loading the Combi rack without the aid of the Orange Film Guide and I find it easier to use the Film Guide.

[Argentum]

silverprint sell drying screen mesh which can be cut to size. £6.50 a metre or thereabouts. Under darkroom/drying section. I'm sure any nylon or fibreglass flyscreen would do.

http://www.flyscreenqueen.co.uk/Fly%20Screen%20Material.html