PDA

View Full Version : The Other Multigrade


Dave miller
10th December 2008, 09:00 PM
I was looking on the Silverprint (http://www.silverprint.co.uk/) site earlier and noticed a piece on a new soft working developer that may be of interest to you. It’s on the front page and titled “The Other Multigrade. Also, following on from an earlier thread, I see that they will now deliver 10 litre quantities of Ilford chemicals.

Argentum
10th December 2008, 11:31 PM
Well there's a strange thing because I have been assured by both Silverprint and RK that the problem with delivering chemicals is the courier companies who won't do it. Although RK do have a courier who will but they think they will stop soon. So how come silverprint can suddenly deliver liquids? Have they changed courier? And how come any chemicals get delivered to any retail outlet. The stories they give don't seem to add up.

Dave miller
11th December 2008, 07:13 AM
Well there's a strange thing because I have been assured by both Silverprint and RK that the problem with delivering chemicals is the courier companies who won't do it. Although RK do have a courier who will but they think they will stop soon. So how come silverprint can suddenly deliver liquids? Have they changed courier? And how come any chemicals get delivered to any retail outlet. The stories they give don't seem to add up.

I guess different carriers have different rules.

Ag-Bromide
11th December 2008, 01:51 PM
Agfa Adaptol and Kodak Selectol-Soft were often used solely or in conjunction with a normal or vigorous contrast print developer for obtaining intermediate contrast with graded papers. These are soft working print developers where Metol (Elon) is often the sole developing agent. Tetenal used to sell a similar liquid concentrate called Centrabrom-S. Ansel Adams liked Kodak Dektol with Selectol-Soft.
There are many home brew variants including Dr.Beers soft and hard developers and Kodak D-165 which uses Metol-(Elon) only as the reducing agent. As Speedibrews make D-163, I wouldn`t be surprised if `Adaptol II` is close to, if not the actual D-165 formula. I`m not sure of the relevance of these type of developers now with modern variable contrast papers.

Bob
11th December 2008, 03:21 PM
Carriers will carry pretty much anything if you are willing to pay extra for special items. Note that Silverprint levy an extra £5 carriage charge on the 10l stuff which I'm sure is just passing on the carriers extra charge for such heavy and potentially hazardous (as far as the carriers are concerned) liquids.

Re' softworking developers: people still use graded papers so I can see a small market (then again, these days, any b&w developer is a small market :( )...

Mike O'Pray
12th December 2008, 12:09 AM
Seems like good news. £5 isn't bad for carrying 10L, given the weight and the economy of using 10L.

It says "expansion" to me when you might expect contraction.

Mike

Argentum
12th December 2008, 12:35 AM
Well its good that they are now delivering some chemicals but before you rush out and order just bear in mind that Ilfords "Direct 2 Dealer" service can be cheaper if you have a participating dealer in your vacinity.


Silverprint price for 10l of Hypam plus delivery is £65.74

from Ilford D2D it is £51.98 as carriage is free for anything over £45. You just need to be able to pick it up from a participating dealer. I have used this service via London Camera exchange and it works fine. I expect Jessops do it too.

Bill
12th December 2008, 07:55 AM
I expect Jessops do it too.

Handy if they did but it appears that Jessops do not take part in this scheme. For interest I have tried several post codes from around the country and the coverage appears to be quite patchy. Some give several nearby dealers (Nottingham and Maidstone) while others have no dealers within 20 miles (Barrow and Fordham). That distance is a straight line distance, normally a lot further by road.

Bill

Dave miller
12th December 2008, 08:32 AM
I'm going to wander off topic here, forgive me, but I have a point worth making, at least I think so.
Ilford’s scheme is a welcome attempt by them to get their products to us, and to continue supporting dealers as they have always done. That said I don’t think I want to lug 10Kg of chemicals any further than the distance from my front door mat to my darkroom, so don’t feel that the scheme is as attractive to me as it may be to others, in this example. Unless one is able to combine such collection with essential journeys then the cost of collection quickly overtakes the delivery charge; something perhaps we overlook. I will leave you to work the maths.

I do agree that it is important to compare prices, but that full consideration should be given to availability and service. Do we want to support the dealer that specialises in shifting discounted boxes of the top twenty products, or those that stock in depth, so that we continue to have a good choice of product, albeit at possibly slightly higher price for the basics.

Argentum
12th December 2008, 03:14 PM
I'm going to wander off topic here, forgive me, but I have a point worth making, at least I think so.
Ilford’s scheme is a welcome attempt by them to get their products to us, and to continue supporting dealers as they have always done. That said I don’t think I want to lug 10Kg of chemicals any further than the distance from my front door mat to my darkroom, so don’t feel that the scheme is as attractive to me as it may be to others, in this example. Unless one is able to combine such collection with essential journeys then the cost of collection quickly overtakes the delivery charge; something perhaps we overlook. I will leave you to work the maths.

I do agree that it is important to compare prices, but that full consideration should be given to availability and service. Do we want to support the dealer that specialises in shifting discounted boxes of the top twenty products, or those that stock in depth, so that we continue to have a good choice of product, albeit at possibly slightly higher price for the basics.

Ahem,

I bring up the alternatives because whilst I think that what Silverprint offer in the way of a one stop shop for B+W needs is very good, they also seem to have a policy of pricing using a VAT exclusive rate at just below other retailers VAT inclusive rates. e.g. Jessops and RK both give VAT inclusive rates which are similar to silverprint VAT exclusive rates. So buying via silverprint you pay %15 higher prices before tax. More if you look at Jessops prices. Where's the justification for that, especially given the higher basic delivery cost plus added surcharge on volume liquid chemical delivery?

edit: I just just checked jessops site and they are offering free delivery on orders over £50 so 2 bottles of hypam at £46.96 and whatever you can get for £2.95 and its an even better deal than Ilford D2D and delivered to your door. That'll conserve your strength for lugging that 8x10 Dave, but your pockets will be heavier :D

Bob
12th December 2008, 06:22 PM
If you cherry-pick you will find cheaper stockists elsewhere (compare film prices vs 7-day or Mathers for example) but when I have ever put together an order for materials and chemicals Silverprint invariably came out competitive against other wide-range suppliers such as RK and Fotospeed - there was rarely more than a few quid in it on a £80-£100 order (and often in Silverprint's favour) so I do not agree with the assertion that Silverprint has a "policy" of pricing the VAT rate above other supplier's prices - I don't see that at all. It's true they are more expensive than Fotospeed and RK on the large 5l packs of chemicals, but for most things: paper, smaller chemicals etc they are competitive and often cheaper. The only way to tell is to cross-compare a typical order (which takes time and sometimes one supplier does not have them all) but when I have done that there has never been much in it either way.

And Jessops can kiss my hairy white arse before they get any of my money ('tho I realise that is a personal decision and not a commercial one...) even if they are cheaper.

Argentum
12th December 2008, 06:30 PM
Well I'm just a bit peeved at the cost of some chemicals today. Raw chemicals to make this stuff cost pennies and £64 to get 10L of fixer is way over the top when others seem to be able to do it much cheaper. I'll grant you that Jessops are able to do this because of economies of scale but what about RK and D2D.
Ilford are not trying to undercut their dealers. Their prices are full retail price. Silverprints are 15% above that. Why?

Bob
12th December 2008, 08:36 PM
OK - lets look at some actual figures comparing typical items that I would buy at D2D Vs Silverprint.

FP4+ 120 roll: D2D = £2.99; S'print = £2.30
HP5+ 5x4" 25 sheets: D2D = £24.99 ; S'print = £21.63
MGIV-RC Glossy 100 pk: D2d = £30.00; Silverprint = £24.46
MGIV Portfolio postcard: D2D = £24.49; S'print = £20.63
MGIV-WT Fibre glossy 12x16 50 sheets: D2D = £77.49; S'print = £79.09
DD-X 1l: D2D = 14.99; S'print = £15.12
ID-11 5l: D2D = £8.99; S'print = £9.26
MG Dev 1l: D2D = £8.99; S'print = £9.10

It is clear that while there are a couple of chemical items and MGIV-WT where Silverprint are slightly more expensive, it's small and they are substantially cheaper on most paper and film. I recall Ilford saying that they pitched D2D prices at a typical retail price when they started the system, not at a "Retail Price" (Retail Price fixing has been illegal in the UK for many years).

In any event, I do not see any sign of Silverprint prices being 15% above D2D prices.

Mike O'Pray
16th December 2008, 12:30 AM
At the risk of helping a specific thread becoming a kind of wide-ranging free for all which I have seen happen on " bigger" sites, it seemed to me that in the early days of D2D the prices were way above what you could secure items for from other stockists.

If you were a small user like me then D2D prices were way above those I could buy for, by other means. Jessops online ordering was quite good if you could get to the Jessops branch for free as many can if they work or live in a "largish" town.

Ilford products seem to have increased in price considerably and unfortunately at a time when a lot of us are likely to be victims of the biggest recession we have seen since the 1930s

Just to be more specific to end my post, I have been looking at D3200 prices and while 7dayshop escape the new 15% VAT, it still cannot account for the difference in price between it and other UK based stockists.

I have seen no recognition of the new "economic reality" yet from stockists. For hobbyists, like ourselves the demand for the products essential to our well-being tend to be price inelastic but producers and stockists cannot rely on this forever as if it were an immutable law.

I for one hope that I will see some recognition of the "equal pain" that now is the new reality. If you were in the market right now to buy a house what would be your reaction if the house you fancied were suddenly to increase in price? Would you still buy?

Mike

Andrew Bartram
16th December 2008, 09:08 AM
Well there's a strange thing because I have been assured by both Silverprint and RK that the problem with delivering chemicals is the courier companies who won't do it. Although RK do have a courier who will but they think they will stop soon. So how come silverprint can suddenly deliver liquids? Have they changed courier? And how come any chemicals get delivered to any retail outlet. The stories they give don't seem to add up.

I have been using Nova's Multispeed developer for 2 years now. Currently £16.63 fpr 5 litres plus £5.95 delivery.
Their fixer is £18.59
Both are designed for use in their slot processors and when used in my Nova Quad the dev exhibits extraordinary keeping powers particularly if you use the floating bar that sits on top of each slot to minimise oxidation.

I see no reason why they cannot be used in dishes?

B&W Neil
16th December 2008, 01:12 PM
I have been using Nova's Multispeed developer for 2 years now. Currently £16.63 fpr 5 litres plus £5.95 delivery.
Their fixer is £18.59
Both are designed for use in their slot processors and when used in my Nova Quad the dev exhibits extraordinary keeping powers particularly if you use the floating bar that sits on top of each slot to minimise oxidation.

I see no reason why they cannot be used in dishes?


Good points - NOVA are often over-looked when it comes to supplying chemicals and the like. Do they still have that loyalty discount card scheme they started some years back?

Neil.

Dave miller
16th December 2008, 03:33 PM
I have been using Nova's Multispeed developer for 2 years now. Currently £16.63 fpr 5 litres plus £5.95 delivery.
Their fixer is £18.59
Both are designed for use in their slot processors and when used in my Nova Quad the dev exhibits extraordinary keeping powers particularly if you use the floating bar that sits on top of each slot to minimise oxidation.

I see no reason why they cannot be used in dishes?

There is no reason, I've used it in the past in rotary processors without problem.

Mike O'Pray
16th December 2008, 09:05 PM
No I think NOVA dropped the loyalty card approach and went for simple and presumably cheaper pricing instead.

Another vote here for both NOVA dev and fix although I can only vouch for their efficacy and longevity in a NOVA slot processor. Another benefit is that NOVA give times for dev and fix at higher than 20C. I don't know what's in either, chemically speaking, but it seems that if you are happy runnning the NOVA slot at considerably higher than 20C you can reduce both dev and fix time appreciably with NOVA dev and fix.

Mike