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Larry
26th March 2011, 02:14 PM
I'm looking to mount my photographs (pre-cut aperture window mounts are too expensive and just not flexible for the sizes I like to use).

Looking for suggestions and options on how easy a particular product is like to use and it's flexibility.

Anyone with experience with the likes of Fletcher, Keencut, Logan etc. My max price around £250-£300 if I have too.

Most important is long-lasting durability and cost/available of blades. Thickness of card and must cut accuate - professional looking. Got desperate, tried it with stanley knife (yuck). The size of my prints range from 9x6 to 16x12 inches (my standard print paper is 12x9.5).

If there are any really simple and cheaper tools around please tell me!

Thanks everyone.

Dave miller
26th March 2011, 04:27 PM
I use a Logan, sub £100 on ebay.

Mike O'Pray
26th March 2011, 04:27 PM
Larry I know a small-time picture framer and will ask him in the next few days about what he paid for his kit and what is available in your price range.

I suspect that good, easy to use and accurate gear is pretty expensive. Just look at the price of the bigger Rotatrim cutters and these are simpler machines than a frame cutter.

Mike

Dave miller
26th March 2011, 04:37 PM
This LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIwg2byxpQ) may help, it's a demo of the model I have and recommend.

Larry
26th March 2011, 04:50 PM
I will checkout ebay thanks Dave for your podcast link. Mike would really appreciate you asking your friend.

This morning, I rec'd a Lion trade supplies catalogue and most of the frame shop type products are about £800-2000+VAT in the book. Nice to have but honestly way out of my current price range.

A few years ago, I saw a computer linked up to a laser guided mount cutter machine doing different size aperture windows on the same piece of cards.

Oh well, please keep your tips and suggestions coming.

Mike O'Pray
26th March 2011, 04:59 PM
Larry, I was afraid that you'd mention LION. That is where I think my friend the framer got his equipment from and I suspected it was the wrong side of £500 but didn't want to speculate on price.

However I will ask. Dave's kit looks pretty nifty for under a £100

Mike

Argentum
26th March 2011, 06:10 PM
Lion do a full range from the cheapest to the most expensive.

But I think the point is what is the largest size board you want to cut and what volume of mounts do you need to be able to cut. One a week is the territory of the hand cutter and 50 a week is the territory of a full professional cutter. The logans are in between.

You should first find out what size boards you are going to buy. That will tell you the longest size cut you will ever need to make. Then you buy a cutter that can cut that length or width as usually its the width that is the longest cut you will ever make. Simple except then you have to work out maximising usage of the full size boards otherwise you get a lot of wastage and whether its cheaper/easier to buy small boards in bigger multiples.

The logans are ideal. The 301 or one of the larger 700 series which have a square cut extension for cutting bigger boards down to size. Either way I think around £400 max or £100 for the smaller ones which can't cut full size or jumbo board down to size.

And if your cut windows are big enough then you can use what is cut out for matting smaller prints so you need to think it through.

Trevor Crone
26th March 2011, 06:17 PM
I use a Longridge (http://www.longridge.co.uk/default.aspx) Duo. Easy and reliable to use and the company offer excellent after sales service.

Richard Gould
26th March 2011, 06:52 PM
I use a maped cutting system, simple and reasonable price, try silverprint,which is where I got mine from,Richard

Larry
26th March 2011, 07:13 PM
Thanks, at least you've given me some options to consider including "Trevor's" Longridge brand.

Really like the idea by "Argentum" about "And if your cut windows are big enough then you can use what is cut out for matting smaller prints so you need to think it through."

My aim to produce about 10-15 matted prints a week most of them fairly small from tiny 7x5, 10x8 or mostly 12x9.5 papers so overall no bigger than a max of 16x12. Very rare to print anything bigger than 14x11.

Dave miller
26th March 2011, 07:37 PM
If you print to standard sizes it may be better to buy your matts ready cut.

Argentum
26th March 2011, 07:39 PM
Thanks, at least you've given me some options to consider including "Trevor's" Longridge brand.

Really like the idea by "Argentum" about "And if your cut windows are big enough then you can use what is cut out for matting smaller prints so you need to think it through."

My aim to produce about 10-15 matted prints a week most of them fairly small from tiny 7x5, 10x8 or mostly 12x9.5 papers so overall no bigger than a max of 16x12. Very rare to print anything bigger than 14x11.

Bear in mind that what is cut out has bevelled edges which need to be trimmed off. My experience is that the best laid plans don't always work out. You either cut mount boards to fit standard off the shelf frames so you can get frames cheaply or you cut custom sizes to suit the image. The latter usually results in a superior finished article because you crop your print to suit the subject and then cut the mat to suit the image size and that gives the best balanced result. But at the cost of throwing out all your pre-planned mount cutting sizes and having to get custom size frames made. This is why sometimes it makes sense to buy the more expensive smaller board sizes as there can be less wastage overall.
The former is the most cost effective but you end up cropping your print to some pre-determined window size which is frequently not quite as optimum as you might like but save you a little money in saved wastage if you manage to use all of the full sized board with little wastage.

Tony Marlow
26th March 2011, 07:42 PM
I use one made by FrameCo which is very good. It is an Australian make and can be seen at http://www.clubframeco.com/store/index.php
There is a UK shop in Aylesbury, Tel. 020 8144 1658, email, frame.uk@clubframeco.com
There are some on ebay which came up on a Google search, but it is worth getting a catalogue from the Aylesbury man; there are lots of assessories.

Tony

Richard Gould
26th March 2011, 09:03 PM
Thanks, at least you've given me some options to consider including "Trevor's" Longridge brand.

Really like the idea by "Argentum" about "And if your cut windows are big enough then you can use what is cut out for matting smaller prints so you need to think it through."

My aim to produce about 10-15 matted prints a week most of them fairly small from tiny 7x5, 10x8 or mostly 12x9.5 papers so overall no bigger than a max of 16x12. Very rare to print anything bigger than 14x11.

Larry, at 10 to 15 matted prints per week then the Maped system would suit you, another suggestion would be the widely available Jaker mount cutting system, very reasonable, blades easily available from most craft shops,you get a mount cutter and a special ruler which it clips on to, similer to the Maped system, I could cut 15 mats in around an hour, Richard

Richard S
27th March 2011, 07:50 AM
I have the same Logan model as Dave, and it's fine for the number of mats I cut.

Larry
27th March 2011, 11:16 AM
Hi and good morning,

Many thanks to all who responded. The Logan brand seems to have a strong following here and will take a fresh look at it again. When I've made my decision, I'll let you all know what happens.

Cheers everyone for your constructive suggestions.

Larry
27th March 2011, 11:47 AM
Just looked on Amazon and they have the Logan 301s about £100 and I took another look at the youtube demo video and it does look like it should meet me needs.

I do have a 2 other questions we are; what sort of mountboard do you suggest and what type of adhesive tape should one use that doesn't cause issues with the backing of RC paper.

Many thanks.

Trevor Crone
27th March 2011, 01:22 PM
Larry, I standardise all my mounts using Conservation board which I purchase from Silverprint along with self-adhesive linen tape for hinging the boards. Photographs are secured using self-adhesive photo-corners.

Richard Gould
27th March 2011, 01:39 PM
Just looked on Amazon and they have the Logan 301s about £100 and I took another look at the youtube demo video and it does look like it should meet me needs.

I do have a 2 other questions we are; what sort of mountboard do you suggest and what type of adhesive tape should one use that doesn't cause issues with the backing of RC paper.

Many thanks.
Larry,
I use acid free mounting board which I buy locally from a craft/paper shop and which comes in large boards, and I cut it down to the size I need, usually 16/20 and I get 2 boards per sheet,at £2.75 p over here,
Richard

Ian Marsh
27th March 2011, 02:38 PM
I have been a professional framer for nearly thirty years and so feel able to offer some advice here

Probably all of the cutters mentioned would produce perfectly acceptable results with a little practice for small scale mount production. It is largely a matter of preference and perseverance.

Conservation mountboard should be your minimum choice if archival concerns are important, with museum (pure cotton) boards offering the ultimate protection.

Trevor is right to suggest mounting corners to hold prints, they should not be too tight to allow the print to expand and contract. Unfortunately I must disagree with Trevor regarding self adhesive tape to hinge the boards together. These tapes will remain sticky and attract all sorts of muck. Better to us a gummed tape that will dry permanently.

Trevor Crone
27th March 2011, 02:50 PM
Unfortunately I must disagree with Trevor regarding self adhesive tape to hinge the boards together. These tapes will remain sticky and attract all sorts of muck. Better to us a gummed tape that will dry permanently.

Very good point Ian. I did use gummed tape some years back and I really should think about returning to it.

Argentum
27th March 2011, 03:08 PM
you get gummed linen tape but if the image is to be put into a frame then you don't need to hinge the mat to the backing board assuming backing board is frame size.

A simple gummed hinge will attach print (at top) to backing board or you can use corners like trevor. Linen or rice paper hinges can just be wetted to release them at some future date if required.

Ian Marsh
27th March 2011, 06:14 PM
you get gummed linen tape but if the image is to be put into a frame then you don't need to hinge the mat to the backing board assuming backing board is frame size.

A simple gummed hinge will attach print (at top) to backing board or you can use corners like trevor. Linen or rice paper hinges can just be wetted to release them at some future date if required.

Sorry, but if you are hinging a photo to a bottom mount with a window mount on top you should always attach the two (along the longest side), they may well move inside a frame and damage the image, if there is no possibility of them moving then the boards are too tight within the frame and may bow.

Yes T hinges can be used with jap tissue and starch paste. (This is the highest level of conservation framing, and as you say fully and easily reversible) Never use linen for this, as it is a golden rule that any material used for hinging should be weaker than the object. That way if there is any stress from environmental or other issues the hinge will fail and not the picture. Do not use a single long hinge, as this will cause the paper to cockle along this edge.

Alan Clark
27th March 2011, 06:22 PM
Larry, very cheap mount cutters consist of nothing more than a cutter unit that slides in a grooved straight-edge. I would avoid these and go for a mount cutter that also has a fence that can be set to the width of the mount sides, for convenient, quick and repeatable cutting.
Without doubt the cheapest way of getting mounts is to cut them yourself from large boards eg. from Lion or Brittania Mounts, typically 32" x 42" or 32" x 47" You certainly don't need a mount cutter big enough to cut these boards down to size. This job can be done very quickly with a good straight-edge and Stanley knife. ( A cutter big enough to handle these boards - with a proper adjustable fence - is a very big and expensive piece of kit)
I have a Logan Compact Matcutter that cuts mounts up to about 26" overall size, and an adjustable fence for sides up to 4" wide. This works very well. Spare blades are readily available from Art shops.

Alan

Larry
27th March 2011, 06:40 PM
Once again, thanks to all for the really helpful insight into mounting. Will try and visit my nearest art shop (15 miles away) on Monday and have a look round now that I've been educated in what to look for and then buy in-store or online depending on availability and price. Cheers!

FrankB
28th March 2011, 01:58 PM
Another vote for Longridge here. Excellent product and nice people to do business with.

The (few) mats I've done have used linen tape for a hinge and it's worked well, though you do end up using a fair amount of board and it does make a fairly thick sandwich when you're done.

Good luck with whatever solution you go for!

Larry
3rd April 2011, 10:23 PM
Here's an update

Well made a decision and ordered a Logan 301s cuter, Daler Rowney mountboard, linen-tape and some photo corners.

Everything turned up yesterday and I've made a start on practicing with some old cardboard boxes to get the hang on using it before using the real mountboard.

Must say, it's a really simple but well made product considering it's one of the cheaper end models and it does seem to work well.

It certainly takes a bit of practice in how gentle to be when cutting and slowing up near your marked out end point. I'm somewhat quite please with it's functionality and already made a couple of good mounts for real.

So thanks to all for your recommendations and also to DAVE who uses the same model.

I came across the following link which may be of interest in working out paper/board sizes.

http://www.papersizes.org/a-paper-sizes.htm

Argentum
3rd April 2011, 11:34 PM
A couple of tips on mountboard. The bevel cut on cheap mountboard will yellow very quickly. It's a give a way that cheap board has been used. Often see this in local art galleries. That may or may not matter depending on the expected display life of an image. When I say quickly I mean within 12 to 24 months. After a couple or 3 years it will look a dirty brown.
For that reason it is worth using conservation grade mountboard which is acid free and lignin free and the bevel cuts stay white for a long time (in good environmental conditions).

The fine art trade guild have a guide on mountboard specifications. Most of the major manufacturers make a conservation grade board. But beware that most high street art shops sell the cheap stuff.

The best cutting board I ever used was crescent rag board which was very expensive but it cuts beautifully. Rag board is usually classed as museum grade. Museum grade is overkill for silver gelatin prints except rag board is nice to work with as it seems less prone to hook (blade taking a route of its own) when cutting.

Alan Clark
4th April 2011, 04:10 PM
The problem of the blade taking its own route, mentioned by Argentum, can be caused by what you place under the mount board to cut into. A friend got a Longridge mount cutter and phoned to say all his cuts curved off at the end. It turned out he was using a self-healing cutting mat under the mount board. When we took it out and replaced it with an ordinary strip of mount board the problem disappeared.

Alan

Argentum
4th April 2011, 10:42 PM
The problem of the blade taking its own route, mentioned by Argentum, can be caused by what you place under the mount board to cut into. A friend got a Longridge mount cutter and phoned to say all his cuts curved off at the end. It turned out he was using a self-healing cutting mat under the mount board. When we took it out and replaced it with an ordinary strip of mount board the problem disappeared.

Alan

The thickness of the board and how hard it is is usually the cause of hooking. I use a self healing cutting mat without problems. But I have a logan hand cutter on which the cutting depth is adjustable. If the cutting depth isn't set correctly then hooking will happen but when the depth is set correctly then it doesn't except on thick ( 8 ply ) boards which are notorius for being difficult to cut without a highend mount cutter. This is where rag board comes into its own because it cuts more easily.
Blades go blunt quickly. Change them frequently.

Alan Clark
5th April 2011, 09:00 AM
Argentum, in the case I cited above the hooking was not caused by the thickness or the hardness of the mount board, as you suggest. It was caused by the use of a self-healing mat underneath, whose hardness caused the blade to flex into a shallower angle when its tip was being pushed into it at the start of each cut. If you are getting away with a similar set-up it is no doubt because you have the depth of cut on your Logan cutter set so the blade only just penetrates the surface of the self- healing mat. My friend's cutter had no depth-of-cut adjustment and anyone else with a similar cutter would best avoid self-healing mats.

Depth of cut adjustment is nice to have. My logan cutter has it. (Anyone with a Logan cutter can check theirs by looking for an adjustable grub screw in the base of the cutter unit, which acts as a stop when the cutter is pushed down) but with branded mount card and a strip of the same card underneath, the tolerances are not fine. I usually cut standard 1.4mm thick card with mine but ocasionally cut thicker, so keep mine at a 3mm vertical depth of cut. Set like this, overdepth really, I've cut lots of Lion Value, Daler Rouney, Brittania, and Bainbridge board over the years and never had a problem with hooking.

Alan

Argentum
5th April 2011, 10:47 AM
Argentum, in the case I cited above the hooking was not caused by the thickness or the hardness of the mount board, as you suggest. It was caused by the use of a self-healing mat underneath, whose hardness caused the blade to flex into a shallower angle when its tip was being pushed into it at the start of each cut. If you are getting away with a similar set-up it is no doubt because you have the depth of cut on your Logan cutter set so the blade only just penetrates the surface of the self- healing mat. My friend's cutter had no depth-of-cut adjustment and anyone else with a similar cutter would best avoid self-healing mats.

Depth of cut adjustment is nice to have. My logan cutter has it. (Anyone with a Logan cutter can check theirs by looking for an adjustable grub screw in the base of the cutter unit, which acts as a stop when the cutter is pushed down) but with branded mount card and a strip of the same card underneath, the tolerances are not fine. I usually cut standard 1.4mm thick card with mine but ocasionally cut thicker, so keep mine at a 3mm vertical depth of cut. Set like this, overdepth really, I've cut lots of Lion Value, Daler Rouney, Brittania, and Bainbridge board over the years and never had a problem with hooking.

Alan

Actually setting the cutting depth is rather important because on the logans it also effects the finish point of the cut. i.e. it lines up with the guide mark on the cutting unit. If it is set to cut too deep you will always get a small overcut if you are not careful.
I have no idea what you do if you can't adjust the depth but I guess people just do it by eye or have worked out where to set cutting stops if they have them on their unit.

Alan Clark
5th April 2011, 11:07 AM
A slight over-cut is better than a slight under-cut, which can result in the surface paper tearing away in the corner, or has to be finished by hand with a scalpel...

Alan

Argentum
6th April 2011, 07:55 AM
Any over ciuts are bad. Some galleries won't let you hang prints with overcuts and why should anyone buy something with sloppy mat cutting work.

Neil Smith
6th April 2011, 09:59 AM
I find if you get to know your equipment there is no need to overcut, the worst I get is a very slight corner still connected which is easily cut with a scalpel leaving a perfect corner.
I once did an event selling some mounted landscape work and a guy who turned out to be a professional picture mounter asked what I was using, when I told him a Logan cutter with just a rule he was very surprised, so if you are careful it can be done. It would be a lot easier with Daves set up though.

Neil

Paul Mitchell
6th April 2011, 10:52 AM
I use the Logan 450 Intermediate which is a tad more expensive than some models but it does have a useful addition of a production stop. It stops any over cutting and it also enables you to apply a standard pressure throughout the cut which reduces the chances of hooking.

My only limitation with this mount cutter is the depth of cut which is limited to about 2mm. I normally have to buy in thicker mounts from my local framer but they can only do up to 2.5mm... and charge a fortune, if anyone knows of somewhere who does thicker mounts (3-3.5mm) I would be grateful.

Paul

Argentum
6th April 2011, 11:12 AM
I use the Logan 450 Intermediate which is a tad more expensive than some models but it does have a useful addition of a production stop. It stops any over cutting and it also enables you to apply a standard pressure throughout the cut which reduces the chances of hooking.

My only limitation with this mount cutter is the depth of cut which is limited to about 2mm. I normally have to buy in thicker mounts from my local framer but they can only do up to 2.5mm... and charge a fortune, if anyone knows of somewhere who does thicker mounts (3-3.5mm) I would be grateful.

Paul

I think you can buy any logan cutter to use on it. I have the 4000 which has adjustable cut depth.

Argentum
6th April 2011, 11:25 AM
A word of caution, the thicker the board the more prone to hooking. A typical thickish board is 1500-2000 microns (2mm) but because you cut at an angle you are cutting approx 3mm. An 8ply board is around 3-4000 microns and the cut is approx 5mm due to the angle. That is pretty thick and you will need new blades and very sturdy mount cutter. This is where rag board will make life easier but its very expensive.
Arqadia in london do thick boards and I think Lion do as well. Also Wessex Pictures do Crescent rag in 8 ply 3000micron. But it might be easier to get pre cut boards if you want really thick board.

Alan Clark
6th April 2011, 01:01 PM
Argentum, I think you are stetching credibility a bit far here if you implying that your cutter is so well adjusted that you don't get undercuts or overcuts. This implies accuracy to less than a tenth of a millimetre, which is just not possible with the equipment we are talking about.
I do get an overcut, but it is so small you can't see it.
As for galleries rejecting work because of sub-standard mounting, all I can say is that I've always framed my own work, and have sold many hundreds of paintings and photographs in lots of galleries and never had a complaint about a slight overcut on a mount...

Alan

Paul Mitchell
6th April 2011, 03:21 PM
Thanks for some of your replies. I do already use various grades of mountboard including Colourmount conservation from Lion (a good everyday board) or Alpharag Artcare from Neilsen (a beautiful board to cut and feel)) but am limited to cutting 1.5 to 2mm thickness, yes you can adjust the blade depth to cut deeper board but it's fairly hit or miss affair and at nearly £10 a sheet it's not a risk worth taking. During the various calls to framers local to me one even replied that all boards over 3mm thickness were cut by lasers nowadays!... someone smell burning?...

Paul

Ian Marsh
6th April 2011, 04:44 PM
During the various calls to framers local to me one even replied that all boards over 3mm thickness were cut by lasers nowadays!... someone smell burning?...Paul

Never heard such nonesense. CMCs (computerised mount cutters) are becoming more popular, but any competent professional framer should be able to handle boards up to 3mm

Neil Smith
6th April 2011, 06:01 PM
During the various calls to framers local to me one even replied that all boards over 3mm thickness were cut by lasers nowadays!... someone smell burning?...

Paul

I smell something, but I am not sure its burning;)


Neil

Trevor Crone
6th April 2011, 06:14 PM
Any slight overcut I've managed to make invisible with the use of a good quality burnishing tool. As a matter of course I always burnish the window matt.

Alan Clark
6th April 2011, 06:27 PM
Paul, regarding your problem with thick mounts, have you considered double mounting, using two standard thickness mounts of the same colour, with the outer window about 5mm bigger allround than the inner? This might give you something of the "luxurious" look that you are probably after with thick mounts.

Alan

Ian Marsh
7th April 2011, 08:01 AM
Any slight overcut I've managed to make invisible with the use of a good quality burnishing tool. As a matter of course I always burnish the window matt.

This is good practice. Best to lay a shet of paper down and burnish through it, it stops the board going "shiney"

Paul Mitchell
7th April 2011, 08:16 AM
Paul, regarding your problem with thick mounts, have you considered double mounting, using two standard thickness mounts of the same colour, with the outer window about 5mm bigger allround than the inner? This might give you something of the "luxurious" look that you are probably after with thick mounts.

Alan

Hi Alan, yes I have tried double mounting but I personally find them a little fussy for a specific portfolio of images I'm looking to mount

Paul