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dsallen
4th April 2011, 11:39 AM
Does anyone have experience of this product? It is meant to be like Sistan but more refined. The product information says it can be used after washing and then the prints can be dried without further washing.

I use drying screens bought from Martin years ago. If I use this product will it 'contaminate' the screens? or is it safe for long-term use?

My main interest is achieving enhanced archival quality for my prints as this is one of the key points buyers cite. Previously, I have toned with Selenium, given a short wash and then hypo-clear followed by a 1 - 2 hour (depending upon water temperature) wash in a Silverprint washer.

I noted in Martin's new catalogue that he states that Selenium doesn't do a good job of increasing archival keeping qualities and recommends use of Sistan.

Any advice, comments or guidance would be appreciated.

Best,

David.

Miha
4th April 2011, 01:11 PM
It think Adostab is Sistan, just branded differently. It can be also purchased as Ag Stab: http://www.macodirect.de/stabbr12-liter-p-952.html or Labostab: http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/shop/fix_stop_waesserung/118/lang:de

It will contaminate the screens according to this paragraph from Maco: The pinch and transport rollers of mechanical processors and continuous dryers should be carefully wiped clean to stop the AG STAB solution crystallizing on them.

As for archival permanence your best bet is to tone your prints in poylsulfide toners like Viradon.

You can read more on Sistan here: http://www.mahn.net/DL_MAHN/agfaSist.pdf

Richard Gould
4th April 2011, 02:56 PM
David, I have never used adostab/sistan Etc, but for maximum archival permanace the best way that I know of is as Miha says, tone in thio/sulphide type toners, that way your prints will last as long as the paper lasts, Richard

Mike O'Pray
4th April 2011, 06:41 PM
You can read more on Sistan here: http://www.mahn.net/DL_MAHN/agfaSist.pdf

Miha Is there an English translation for the text. He might at least try and look as if he is enjoying himself.:D

Mike

Miha
4th April 2011, 07:38 PM
Sorry Mike, I can't find one.

dsallen
9th April 2011, 07:50 AM
Thanks for your responses.

Confirmed my suspicions.

I think I will stick to my long-term way of working.

Best

Martin Reed
5th June 2011, 09:04 AM
Thanks for your responses.

Confirmed my suspicions.

I think I will stick to my long-term way of working.

Best

Sorry bit late on this one. The Sistan etc are thiourea based treatments that 'lock down' the silver & prevent it from migrating through the gelatin - most untoned prints heading up for a century old will show tarnishing as silver migrates to the surface. And some new prints, like the delightful study in the Sistan brochure, will show it quickly if mounted up in contact with dodgy materials like hardboard. (Although getting the framing right in the first place would be preferable).

On the other hand, I and most other people tend to be suspicious of anything that requires leaving a residue of free chemicals on the print.

I wasn't denigrating the efficacy of selenium, just pointing out that from various peoples research work there's something better, polysulphide toning. In the absence of Viradon, or any other brands, it's back to basics, see this other thread;

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=53119#post53119

Martin Reed
5th June 2011, 09:13 AM
Have put the end paragraph of the Sistan brochure through the Babylon translator;

In many motives, the use of toners used a red-brown or braunviolette picture- tonveranderung cause is not always desired. With SISTAN remains after the processing of the received Bildton achieved. In addition to the gallery owners is one of the "originality" of course also the security that the SISTAN treated images during the exhibition and after the sale clogging against possible consequences of oxidation are protected.
The efficacy of sistan is by the data provided by an independent tests * confirmed.

I don't think I'll bother with the rest of it.

dsallen
5th June 2011, 09:18 AM
Hi Martin,

Hope you are well and that Silverprint is thriving.

I know that you stock the Moersch Carbon toner - have you or anyone else at Silverprint tried it? / how does it compare in archival regards?

This references a previous but related thread:

Hi Leon,

a friend of mine was a loyal Viradon user for many years. When it first disappeared and was replaced by Viradon New toner he couldn't get the same results until someone told him that the Viradon also had Selenium in it (which he then added to Viradon New but still didn't get the same results).

Anyway, getting round to answering your question, Detlef contacted Wolfgang Moersch here in Germany who suggested his Carbon Toner not as a direct substitute but as a better more versatile toner.

Since then he only uses Moersch MT2 Carbontoner (its a direct toner he also makes an indirect carbon toner) and achieves an amazing range of rich tones. I believe Martin stocks this at Silverprint in the UK. If not, Moersch has his own site or you can also contact Fotoimpex in Berlin.

I hope this helps.
__________________
David,
d.s.allen, fotograf
d.s.allen@hotmail.com
Neue 3D Ausstellung/New 3D exhibition: www.german-fine-arts.com/berlin.html

Hi Leon,

I have never personally used either version Viradon. The friend that I mentioned always likes his prints to have a brownish tone and varies the intensity of this by paper choice and toning time in Moersch's Carbon toner. Unfortunately (like many analog photographer, he doesn't have any stuff on the net that I can direct you to. However, having seen the wide variety of tones that he achieves, I would say that, if this is what you were using Viradon for, then it would be a great substitute.

Look here for more idea of what it is capable of:

http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/co...erie/carbon/22

The examples are: Top left untoned, top right 30secs Carbon toning, bottom left 60secs carbon toning and bottom right 40 secs bleach then 40 secs carbon toner.
__________________
David,
d.s.allen, fotograf
d.s.allen@hotmail.com
Neue 3D Ausstellung/New 3D exhibition: www.german-fine-arts.com/berlin.html

Martin Reed
5th June 2011, 10:14 AM
Hi David, I thought I hadn't seen you recently! Well, you've got all the Adox/Maco/Moersch stuff more or less on your doorstep in Berlin now... and that virtual gallery is great!

We haven't given much attention so far to the Carbon toners (apart from supplying people who wanted them) mainly because the name doesn't reveal the action involved, but seems to be one that Wolfgang coined based on the appearance of the results. Similarly Tim Rudman doesn't name-check it, but maybe the toner wasn't available when he did his research.

But from everything I've just trawled through it does appear Carbon toner is a selenium/sulphide toner, sounds very like the old Kodak Polytoner that was outlawed a good 10 or so years ago. The origin predates the 'refined' selenium toner we're used to now, (selenium in conjunction with sulphite) and is formed by dissolving selenium powder in a solution of sodium (or ammonium or potassium) sulphide. The range of colour effects is greater than with conventional selenium toner, but the solution is less stable, and of course there's the smell.

As Mike O'Pray put it in a previous post;

"...based on your experience with Rapid Toner, Wolfgang either does it on a barge in the middle of the Rhine or Mrs Moersch is the most tolerant wife any photog could possibly hope for.
He might of course be divorced or unmarried. I would be both in an instant based on this kind of toning - or dead and not from the smell either :D:."

dsallen
6th June 2011, 08:57 AM
Hi Martin,

Thanks for the kind comments about the virtual gallery.

My friend who regularly uses the Moersch MT2 Carbontoner has his own darkroom in an old factory building. I presume that is how he manages to remain married!

Best,