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View Full Version : Angled viewfinder for Ebony 4x5 cameras


Trevor Crone
11th January 2012, 09:19 PM
Anyone with an Ebony 4x5 view camera may be interested in this? (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Folding-Monocular-Magnifying-Reflex-Viewer-Ebony-4x5-/150720105911?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D5542216706819898852)

Although the seller is in China, it arrived quickly and was well packed. Mine was very stiff to open but after modification it works well. Slim profile so I leave it on my SW45 at all times. Downsides, viewer cannot be rotated for vertical orientation, so viewing has to be done from the side. I don't take many verticals in this format so not really a problem for me. Image a little dark with WA lenses. Also comes with carry pouch.

JimW
12th January 2012, 07:47 PM
I don't have an Ebony, but 200 quid is more than I paid for my 5x4... Does it magnify the image sufficient to negate the need for a loupe? I probably sweat the focus issue too much, but I like to see the focus through a loupe if possible.

Trevor Crone
12th January 2012, 09:01 PM
I don't have an Ebony, but 200 quid is more than I paid for my 5x4... Does it magnify the image sufficient to negate the need for a loupe? I probably sweat the focus issue too much, but I like to see the focus through a loupe if possible.

Hi Jim, I would say no need for a loupe, magnification is quite sufficient for me. What I particularly like about it, it allows me to have both hands free for me to make the necessary adjustments such as tilt, rise, fall, etc.

DaveP
12th January 2012, 09:28 PM
Do I assume that for vertical shots you have to view from the side AND the image is still upside down?

Trevor Crone
12th January 2012, 09:55 PM
Do I assume that for vertical shots you have to view from the side AND the image is still upside down?

I'm afraid so Dave, but at least I'm hands free to do a hand stand:D

Phil
13th January 2012, 07:46 AM
Trevor - I do go and lovingly gaze at the Ebony site occasionally, but am unwilling to part with any body organs for money :D
Seriously though - you're an obviously massively experienced LF user - are they really the bees knees?
Phil

Trevor Crone
13th January 2012, 08:45 AM
Trevor - I do go and lovingly gaze at the Ebony site occasionally, but am unwilling to part with any body organs for money :D
Seriously though - you're an obviously massively experienced LF user - are they really the bees knees?
Phil

Phil, they are not the 'bees knees' no more than a Leica is to 35mm. They are just tools, however they look very nice, are very well-built and do what they are designed to do very well. When I bought my SW45 back in 2000 I wanted a 4x5 view camera that could handle extreme wide-angle photography and this was the only camera that came close to my requirements. The British built Walker Titan XL wasn't available then otherwise I probably would have gone for that. However what is a big plus, being made from titanium they are showing no signs of corrosion/oxidation, and that is after almost 12 years of heavy use in all weathers.

Phil
13th January 2012, 09:01 AM
Hi Trevor - I can appreciate what you are saying. There's something about something being 'just right' - I get it from my Rollei and Nikon F. Very tempting though, and extremely desireable - oh well maybe one day!
My early Wista DX is very nice though and I am satisified with it, so hopefully it'll see me through another few years . . . and it certainly beats lugging a Sinar into the wilds!
Hmmm - yeah, Walker Titan . . .you know, there's just too many cameras, and it is a disease :)
Phil

Dave miller
13th January 2012, 09:19 AM
I've brought quite a lot of LF kit from China, and whilst delivery is usually several weeks, the quality has always been acceptable. Again, in Large Format terms, this doesn't seem overpriced. Thanks for posting details Trevor.

Trevor Crone
13th January 2012, 09:27 AM
Hi Trevor - I can appreciate what you are saying. There's something about something being 'just right' - I get it from my Rollei and Nikon F. Very tempting though, and extremely desireable - oh well maybe one day!
My early Wista DX is very nice though and I am satisified with it, so hopefully it'll see me through another few years . . . and it certainly beats lugging a Sinar into the wilds!
Hmmm - yeah, Walker Titan . . .you know, there's just too many cameras, and it is a disease :)
Phil

Phil, you'll get the same photographs from your Wista as you would from an Ebony. As long as the Wista is doing what it should for you there is no real need for change. However I appreciate when you say, "just right". When I tested the DIY 4x5 Bulldog camera for B+W mag a few years ago I really hated the look of it and being made from MDF:mad: But that's really just prejudice on my part for the photographs I took with it of course looked no different from those from my Ebony. However I knew with heavy continued use the dear old Bulldog would eventually start to flounder. I've tried to reassure my daughters that my Ebony's will hold onto their value so they can get some money back after I'm gone:D And I wont tell you what the wife recently said to me when I told her I really could do with a 5x7 Ebony to complete the set:shock:

Trevor Crone
13th January 2012, 09:34 AM
I've brought quite a lot of LF kit from China, and whilst delivery is usually several weeks, the quality has always been acceptable. Again, in Large Format terms, this doesn't seem overpriced. Thanks for posting details Trevor.

Dave, the viewer arrived in about a week to my surprise. I thought the price, which includes delivery, wasn't too bad considering the usual cost of genuine Ebony accessories. I know this is built by a third-party but the build and materials are not bad at all:) I'm surprised Ebony have never made a viewer like this themselves but of course the price would rocket.

vanannan
13th January 2012, 09:49 AM
I think one of these represents outstanding value for money when you take into account the divine element:D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/90-Degree-Right-Angel-Prism-Finder-Linhof-4x5-Camera-b-/270702255215?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item3f071c9c6f

Trevor Crone
13th January 2012, 10:04 AM
I think one of these represents outstanding value for money when you take into account the divine element:D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/90-Degree-Right-Angel-Prism-Finder-Linhof-4x5-Camera-b-/270702255215?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item3f071c9c6f

Yes indeed good value for money. I don't know how easily they could be adapted to fit a camera such as the Ebony, if at all. And for field use they are bulky as they do not fold flat.

It's really frustrating, although the LF industry standardised the universal sprung film back they have different fittings when it comes to accessories such as detachable viewfinders:mad:

Phil
13th January 2012, 10:13 AM
Hi Trevor - yeah I know it is pretty much all in the glass and the user, but all the same . . . :D
I am using doubled tshirts for a darkcloth and a linen tester on the wista . . .currently hankering after something more 'proper' though.
P

Dave miller
13th January 2012, 10:26 AM
Hi Trevor - yeah I know it is pretty much all in the glass and the user, but all the same . . . :D
I am using doubled tshirts for a darkcloth and a linen tester on the wista . . .currently hankering after something more 'proper' though.
P

Seems like a bad attack of GAS that should be resisted; for a day or so.:cool:

Argentum
13th January 2012, 10:39 AM
Trevor,
Do you use a fresnel in combination with that viewer to get even lighting or does it get a bit dim at the edges, especially with wide angle lenses.
My understanding is that these things work much better with a fresnel because you can't move your eyepoint.
I have a linhof viewer (surplus to requirements now) but never used a fresnel with it. I think it would have been better with a fresnel.

Trevor Crone
13th January 2012, 11:11 AM
Trevor,
Do you use a fresnel in combination with that viewer to get even lighting or does it get a bit dim at the edges, especially with wide angle lenses.
My understanding is that these things work much better with a fresnel because you can't move your eyepoint.
I have a linhof viewer (surplus to requirements now) but never used a fresnel with it. I think it would have been better with a fresnel.

Hi Rob, yes I do use a fresnel but the image is still dim towards the edges, for the very reason you give, you can't move your eye-point. This is only really noticeable with lenses wider then 80mm. I also have a bellows viewer which is best with WA use because you can move it around, however it's awkward to use at low viewpoints which is the main reason why I bought this angled viewer.

Phil
13th January 2012, 11:12 AM
Seems like a bad attack of GAS that should be resisted; for a day or so.:cool:

The more GAS the better Dave . . it is sad, and to think I survived for years with an OM 10 :D
Still loving the super cheap (and now serviced) Koni Omega too - what a lens . . but what an advance system!
Phil

Trevor Crone
13th January 2012, 11:21 AM
The more GAS the better Dave . . it is sad, and to think I survived for years with an OM 10 :D
Still loving the super cheap (and now serviced) Koni Omega too - what a lens . . but what an advance system!
Phil

Phil, how are you getting on with the Koni? Have looked at these myself over the years but have always resisted, far too many cameras:D I still have my Konica 35mm cameras and some of the Hexanon and Hexar lenses are superb;)

Phil
13th January 2012, 12:14 PM
Phil, how are you getting on with the Koni? Have looked at these myself over the years but have always resisted, far too many cameras:D I still have my Konica 35mm cameras and some of the Hexanon and Hexar lenses are superb;)

Hi Trevor - I was going to do an update on it with the original thread . . however . . .
I managed to get it serviced by Miles Whitehead who said he had serviced them before, and sure enough it came back beautifully serviced - the lens especially is stunningly clean - really like new! It is a fine camera to use and the bulk is surprisingly manageable, also being a leaf shutter there's no movement to worry about. The rangefinder is taking some effort, but I will get there - it is mostly my not being used to framelines and not compensating for them properly.
The camera's Achilles is that darned advance - I am still getting erratic spacing, but I believe that is down to my pulling and pushing action rather than anything else - you have to be really firm in pulling out, and a good thump pushing back too. If you baby it, it won't advance enough.
Anyway, on the very positive side, the 90mm Super Omegon is one of the most beautiful lenses I own. I was intending attaching some scans but am at work! I believe it is a Tessar type and gives great 'air' to the image if you know what I mean. Detail wise, I have one shot from a tripod where you would be hard pushed to distinguish from a 5x4 at the same enlargement - really chuffed. Not tried it on people yet, but I think it will excel! The dreaded 'bokeh' is very nice too.
All in all considering what I paid, and including the service, I got a really first rate MF camera which is fun to haul around.
Sorry for diverting the thread Dave :D
Phil

Trevor Crone
13th January 2012, 01:12 PM
Hi Phil, good to hear it's performing well. I know the film advance has always been its main problem but at least you seem to have got to grips with this strange concept;) Looking forward to seeing some images taken with it in due course.

PS. I didn't realise they had Omicron lenses, for some reason I always thought they were Hexanon.

Phil
13th January 2012, 08:17 PM
Hi Phil, good to hear it's performing well. I know the film advance has always been its main problem but at least you seem to have got to grips with this strange concept;) Looking forward to seeing some images taken with it in due course.

PS. I didn't realise they had Omicron lenses, for some reason I always thought they were Hexanon.

Me again - as far as I can tell the tooling etc was handed over to Mamiya in the later stages - the 90mm Hexanon became a Super Omegon, but it was just the same lens with the same glass but a different shutter - the underside of the lens looks a little like an RB lens. My wife said some of the pictures look like they were taken in the 70's which I think is a great complement!
Anyway, will scan a couple and stick them somewhere soon. And with regard to the 'bolt' action' advance - it doesn't half get some funny looks!
Phil

Martin Aislabie
14th January 2012, 07:54 PM
Trevor - do you just attach it to the camera back using the slider for the ground glass protector ?

Martin

Trevor Crone
14th January 2012, 08:04 PM
Trevor - do you just attach it to the camera back using the slider for the ground glass protector ?

Martin

Hi Martin, yes, very easy to attach:)

Martin Aislabie
14th January 2012, 08:06 PM
Phil, they are not the 'bees knees' no more than a Leica is to 35mm. They are just tools, however they look very nice, are very well-built and do what they are designed to do very well. When I bought my SW45 back in 2000 I wanted a 4x5 view camera that could handle extreme wide-angle photography and this was the only camera that came close to my requirements. The British built Walker Titan XL wasn't available then otherwise I probably would have gone for that. However what is a big plus, being made from titanium they are showing no signs of corrosion/oxidation, and that is after almost 12 years of heavy use in all weathers.

I looked long and hard at the Walker Titan XL too when I bought a Ebony 45S

I'm still not sure I made the right choice

Ebony cameras are things of beauty and have great tactile qualities but the Walker might be be better all weather cameras

Martin

Ian David
9th March 2012, 12:49 AM
Hi Trevor
Very interesting to read your thoughts on the reflex viewer. Can you comment on how effective it is while wearing spectacles?
You also seem quite happy with your Ebony bellows viewer. Is it a bag bellows or a pleated bellows?
I have been looking for a good darkcloth substitute for certain situations, but am yet to find the answer...
Many thanks
Ian

Argentum
9th March 2012, 02:23 AM
I found with the linhof viewer I had to leave my eye on it for some seconds before it became accustomed to the light levels and I don't wear glasses. The linhof unit has a big soft rubber surround you can push up against which excludes light from entering around your eye. With glasses you will get a fair bit of extraneous light entering which I think will mean you will never be able to exclude all the light from around your eye. i.e. it'll look darker than it might otherwise because your eye won't open up as much as it would if there were less light. But I could be wrong. Contact lenses would be a different story. And Trevors unit may be a bit different.

If you use it in conjunction with a dark cloth then obviously not a problem. Maybe just a small one to give some shade arond the eyepiece.

Trevor Crone
9th March 2012, 08:37 AM
Hi Trevor
Very interesting to read your thoughts on the reflex viewer. Can you comment on how effective it is while wearing spectacles?
You also seem quite happy with your Ebony bellows viewer. Is it a bag bellows or a pleated bellows?
I have been looking for a good darkcloth substitute for certain situations, but am yet to find the answer...
Many thanks
Ian

Hello Ian, I've been using it extensively recently. Although I wear glasses (varifocal) I've not found the need to wear them with this angled viewer. What Rob mentions about light leakage is also an issue, but 'cupping' the hands around the viewer eliminates most of the extraneous light. It's big disadvantage for me is when using wide angles lenses, light full-off is quite noticeable in the corners (I have an Ebony fresnel screen fitted). It seems perfectly fine with focal lengths of 135mm and longer. Compared to the Ebony bellows, which are pleated, it is as you might expect quite a bit heavier. I really noticed this last weekend on a 3 hour woodland walk:( This viewer does come into its own when shooting low viewpoints and you don't wish to tilt the camera down too much and allows 'hands free' for camera adjustments.

If I had to choose between the Ebony bellows viewer and the angled one, I would have to say the Ebony bellows. BTW, I've attached a +4 close-up lens to the Ebony viewer and it works a treat:)

Ian David
9th March 2012, 09:12 AM
If I had to choose between the Ebony bellows viewer and the angled one, I would have to say the Ebony bellows. BTW, I've attached a +4 close-up lens to the Ebony viewer and it works a treat:)

Thanks for your thoughts, Trevor. I am very interested in your comments on the Ebony bellows. I have a set myself and find them really very difficult to use. With, say, a 135mm lens, I find the GG almost as easy to see with just my hands cupped around it (i.e. no bellows at all). With the 3.5x magnifier attached to the bellows, I can only see the very centre of the GG. Fine for just checking central focus if you are already happy with the composition, but not great for checking focus or image elements anywhere else on the GG.
What am I doing wrong??
Ian

Trevor Crone
9th March 2012, 09:49 AM
Ian, I've attached a pic of my Ebony with their own bellows attached as you can see I've modified them by 'bolting' on a +4 close-up lens which allows me to easily focus the image on the GG without the need to wear glasses or use a separate magnifier.

I don't think you are doing anything wrong as you still need to move the viewer around to see into the corners especially when using camera movements.

Ian David
9th March 2012, 10:39 AM
Thanks for the pic, Trevor. It looks very similar to my set up with the 3.5x magnifier attached to the bellows. Perhaps this type of solution is just not for me. It does sometimes get a little warm under the darkcloth though...

Ian

DaveP
9th March 2012, 10:44 AM
It does sometimes get a little warm under the darkcloth though...

Don't rub it in!

Ian David
9th March 2012, 10:50 PM
Don't rub it in!

Sometimes even too warm, Dave... but perhaps I should count my blessings after all!

Trevor, your faith in the Ebony bellows hood has given me a reason to play with it a bit more. I reckon one of my problems is that the fellow I bought it from appears to have virtually never used it and the bellows are still very stiff. I reckon the ability to view all parts of the GG may improve with use and perhaps a bit of leather conditioner. I will devote some time to making the hood a bit more supple, I think.

As for the magnifier, my eyesight is at the point where I can see the hooded unmagnified GG best with no glasses, but the magnifier is best with glasses, so I consequently have to muck about a bit with my specs. Under the darkcloth, the specs just stay on all the time, which is appealing.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts, Trevor.

Ian

Trevor Crone
9th March 2012, 11:13 PM
Ian, have you got the focusing bellows made by Robert White? If so these are much stiffer than the genuine Ebony focusing bellows, which are very supple. The Ebony one's don't have a built-in magnifier. This is why I had to add my own.

Ian David
9th March 2012, 11:57 PM
No, these are the genuine Ebony bellows, together with the Ebony 3.5x magnifier. Like the picture below, but for a 4x5 rather than a 2x3:
http://www.ebonycamera.com/acc.html#Bellows%20focusing%20hood%20with%20remova ble%20magnifier

But I suspect they were never used by the previous owner and stored folded up tight. So I think they need a bit of working, after which they will hopefully become much more supple.

Ian

Trevor Crone
10th March 2012, 02:07 AM
Thanks Ian. When I bought mine, about 12 years ago, they didn't have the built in magnifier.

DaveP
10th March 2012, 08:09 AM
Ian, have you got the focusing bellows made by Robert White? If so these are much stiffer than the genuine Ebony focusing bellows, which are very supple. The Ebony one's don't have a built-in magnifier. This is why I had to add my own.

I think the RW model is designed to be self supporting, without having to hold the bellows, which means focus/composition/movements are quick and easy with two free hands.

Trevor Crone
10th March 2012, 09:12 AM
I think the RW model is designed to be self supporting, without having to hold the bellows, which means focus/composition/movements are quick and easy with two free hands.

I also have a RW version and although reasonably self-supporting when new they start to sag with age - I'll say no more;)

Thingy
20th March 2012, 01:13 AM
I bought an RW model but had to return it as it didn't fit the back of my 45SU. I did make an excellent investment though in one of Bill Maxwell's ultra bright focussing screens - I can often use it without a dark cloth even with my Schneider 120mm Macro lens and with my old Nikon 90/f4.5.

Is it worth paying the extra for an Ebony? Well for a start they not infrequently are offered for sale on the UK Large Format Photography Group Classified pages. In the last two years the 45SU model has been available for less that half it's current price new from RW. However we are still talking about £2000+ for the 45SU! One of the big benefits is if you like using say a 300mm lens AND a 58XL lens on the same camera without top hat or those fiddly recessed lens boards - which are no good unless you have narrow fingers. I can use my 58mm lens on a flat lens board, even with the universal bellows, and have movements with the Ebony bag bellows.

With the 45SU you have bellows length of 58-365mm in a non-folding camera. A cheaper solution would be to build your own LF camera and add the universal bellows. Or you could buy the folding SV45U2 with bellows draw (including tilts & rise) of 55-590mm!!!