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Peter Hogan
4th February 2009, 09:05 AM
I was intrigued by the discussions about the edge markings on a recently posted 120 image, and particularly the possible causes. I have occasionly suffered with the same problem, and this was not the first time it had been mentioned on here, so I have spent the best part of two days testing.
Foaming and contamination had been suggested. I discounted contamination my other chemicals - just not viable, and concentrated on foaming.
I thoroughly cleaned two dev tanks in the dishwasher, then developed a roll of 120 in each tank, using partial stand agitation. Fixed and washed. In one tank I used a washaid (Kodak) and in the other alcohol and dist. water. Both films were perfect.
I then washed out both tanks by a general 'swill' with clean cold water and left them to dry.
I developed two more rolls of film, noting which tank had had the washaid in, using the partial stand method. I should point out that the agitation I use is 'gentle' - pouring the dev gently down the side of the tank during inversions and a gentle 'swirl' for lateral movement. Both films fixed and washed and washaid added to the same tank as previously. Both films perfect.
I repeated the experiment as before, developing two more films, but I was far more energetic, giving some shaking to the tanks, and inverting rather vigorously. Partial stand. Films fixed and washed, washaid in the same tank.
Eureka! The film from the washaid tank had those markings! The other film, perfect. I repeated this experiment another two times, once with gentle agitation, once with vigorous agitation and the results were the same; vigorous agitation in a tank previously having washaid in produced the marking, obviously from foaming. (which you could in fact, see, as it bubbled up through the pouring hole.) Films from a washaid-free tank always perfect.
Conclusions;
a)Washaid used in a tank can produce foaming in subsequent developments. The foam clings to the top edge of the reel and prevents complete development of the film in those areas.
b)Nominal 'rinsing' will not remove all the washaid - the tank needs to be thoroughly cleaned each time.
c)A proper routine of gentle agitation should be used and adhered to.
d)The problem is more likely when the dev. tank is full of film. For example, a one-reel tank with one reel, a two-reel tank with two reels. The surface of the dev. is too close to the top of the film. Better to use a larger tank, leave some space above the reel, and use more dev. A 120 reel needs 500mls liquid to cover it. I suggest a MINIMUM of 550 mls, and better 600, to keep the dev. surface away from the top of the reels. Note that you should use something to prevent the reels from 'sliding' down the centre post whilst inverting. There is usually a white plastic stop supplied, but these get lost. An elastic band wrapped tightly round the post tight to the reel will do the trick.

Bill
4th February 2009, 10:58 AM
Thanks for that Peter, a very timely post as I had just loaded my tank with 2 more rolls of film to try.

Since posting the original problem in the help gallery and taking note of the comments made I have soaked my reels and tank in Paterson Acucclean for 24 hours scrubbing occasionally with an old toothbrush.

I was also thinking about agitation and had decided that perhaps I had been a little vigourous in the initial 60 seconds continuous agitation. It was obvious during that time from the sound that foaming was occurring.

Since reading your note I have processed the 2 films in Prescysol EF, a Pan F Plus and an HP5 Plus for 10.5 minutes partial stand as recommended. I was particular about the speed of agitation. Both films are just out of the wash and both are free from any marks. :)

I have now allocated a 2 litre jug to "Use for final rinse only" and used the see-saw method as mentioned by Dave. That should stop any wetting agent getting on the reels and tank. I have also resolved to deep clean them more often. :rolleyes:

Now if only I hadn't underexposed some of the shots. :slap:

Thank You for all the work you have put into this.

Regards

Bill

Trevor Crone
4th February 2009, 11:20 AM
Very useful feedback Peter.

I've had similar problems in the past but have cured it, as you suggest, by using an extra 50-100ml of WS developer.

Dave miller
4th February 2009, 11:37 AM
My I also add my thanks Peter, it's exactly the kind of experimentation and feed back we need here. Peter's effort will save many a ruined film I'm sure.

Anyone modifying their agitation technique as a result of Peter's post should be aware that reducing the vigour of agitation may also reduce film contrast, so be ready for that too.

To what do you attribute the underexposure on the opposite edge of Bill's film?

Peter Hogan
4th February 2009, 05:54 PM
To what do you attribute the underexposure on the opposite edge of Bill's film?
__________________

Dave

I'm saving up for some more film Dave....

Dave miller
4th February 2009, 07:00 PM
To what do you attribute the underexposure on the opposite edge of Bill's film?
__________________

Dave

I'm saving up for some more film Dave....

Could be a while then? ;)

Jon Butler
4th February 2009, 07:40 PM
Hi All,

Sound advise Peter, thanks.
Had the same problems a few years back
plus strange spiders web pattern on some frames.

Foaming was caused by wetting agent contamination.
This is only a real problem when using stand dev techniques.

I now remove film after washing and hold both ends
between my hands then carefully see-saw back & forth in tray of wetting agent for about 30s.

Been OK since I stopped putting wetting agent in the drum.

Regards JON.

Andrew Bartram
5th February 2009, 03:15 PM
Thanks Peter

I have occasionally been the victim of bubble images on the top edges of 120 film, plus I had noticed the foaming coming up through the tank hole whilst developing. I always had a sneaky suspician that the bubble marks had something to do with wetting agent but was too lazy to persue! - shame on me.
I wasn't particularly aware of too vigourous agitation but, in future I will

1) Repeatedly clean the spirals till no foaming is visible
2) Gently invert dev tank.

Andrew

Rob Archer
5th February 2009, 03:46 PM
Thanks for the research, Peter. Pretty conclusive. Could the amount of wetting agent used have a bearing? I used the get similar probems with 'bubble marks' and the like, but have not had a problem for years. I now only a very small drop of WA and try not to froth it up, so any bubbles disperse quickly. I also rinse out all my tanks regularly.

Rob

Mike O'Pray
5th February 2009, 08:55 PM
Many thanks from me also. This is why this site is so useful. We have people who know what they are doing and are willing to spend time and effort in scientific experiments to solve issues.

Occasionally and seemingly more frequently of late, another site will give you half answers or worse complete "non sequiturs" to the issue being written about.

Very frustrating.

Mike

Bob
6th February 2009, 08:54 PM
I never allow wetting agent to dry on the reels and tanks. I rise for a minute or so in flowing hot water, emptying the tank multiple times, agitating the reels up/down in the tank vigorously to make sure it rinses in to all the nooks and crannies...

Seems to have worked so far but if I ever get the problem, I'll use a toothbrush and toothpaste on the spirals.

Trevor Crone
6th February 2009, 09:33 PM
Seems to have worked so far but if I ever get the problem, I'll use a toothbrush and toothpaste on the spirals.

Bob, failing that you can always put your reels in a glass of Steredent over night.:)

Dave miller
6th February 2009, 10:13 PM
Bob, failing that you can always put your reels in a glass of Steredent over night.:)

But there wouldn't be room. :confused:

Bob
6th February 2009, 10:22 PM
Oy! I am still at the stage where I have toothpaste readily available, but not Steradent...

Thank you VERY much.

Mike O'Pray
6th February 2009, 11:39 PM
Ah Steradent! Remember the days when most dentists' patients with the full approval of their dentists had their own teeth removed in their 40s. Not many years ago.

The professionals always know best - except when they change their minds over about 20 years or much less in some cases which is really a blink of an eye.


Remember when there was also no corrrelation between smoking and lung cancer - apparently?

Mike

Tom Stanworth
19th March 2009, 09:58 AM
Very handy info!!

using washaid when the film is on the spirals can also cause gumming up of the grooves. I rinse washed film in wetting agent/water in a seperate tank before hanging so the spirals & tank go nowhere near the stuff. I don't know what has caused my issues to occur, but wonder whether it could be due to accumulation of wetting agent incorporated into the film itself which has not been fully removes from the tanks.

I too have found gentle agitation and good sharp taps helps a great deal, but my water here is FULL of air so I have to boil it first, then let it cool. I might try some more thorough cleaning of my tanks after use and see what happens. Only ever get issues with 120...