Leica IIIg - Light Leakage?

[KeithM]

I have put four b&w films through my IIIg, processed them at home, all were fine. Put a colour film through it and have just received the negs back from the Lab. The image below shows the worst frame and the frames either side, No. 20 being portrait orientation. Frames 20 & 22 are affected but to a lesser extent. The puzzle is that not every frame is affected e.g. No. 1 is not, No. 2 slightly, No. 3 not. Similarly with camera orientation, some portrait are, others not and ditto for landscape. Camera light leakage or something that took place later?

When I rewound the film I rewound the leader all the way in and when I posted it I used AG Labs mailer without putting the cassette in a plastic tub. When light leakage first came to mind, I did vaguely wonder if the cassette had been 'squished' in the mail and perhaps the light-trap slightly affected. Suggestions as to the likely culprit would be welcomed! Anyway, probably best if I run another roll through and see how that comes out.

http://www.kmercerphotography.co.uk/Leica/IIIg/ExampleNegStrip1.jpg

[big paul]

hi keith I don't know how your camera back opens,, but once I opened the back of my Nikon camera thinking it was empty but there was a fully exposed roll of film in the camera it was not wound back in to the cassette I shut the door fast wound the film back in to the cassette and later developed it and it came out just like yours has ..

could you or somebody have opened it buy mistake ..good luck

[KeithM]

Thanks for the suggestion, Paul. However, the Leica IIIg (1957 vintage) does not have an opening back - the film is loaded and removed via the bottom by removal of the bottom cover. Apart from the loading and unloading process the camera was in a half case the whole time, so I know it was not touched.

[Lostlabours]

It's happened in the cassetteafter exposure, so you've learnt the lesson not to use the plastic tub.

When you first rewind the film it's wuite tight on the spool but with lossen up and move a bit, you've print through of the sprockets which jsut won't happen as you say in a Leica.

Ian

[Argentum]

well it looks like the spacing of the light leak is matched with the frame spacing. That wouldn't happen on the spool except where one frame equals one wind on the spool. So I suspect a few things.
It could be overly tight winding onto the takeup spool. It could be over heating in combination with overly tight. It could be condensation. It could be the lab processor with a light leak or even contamination.
Film being left in camera a long time between images can put serious kink in film which may cause problems in processing, especially if camera gets hot or overly tight.

I think best policy is to run a test roll through camera and have it developed to see if same happens. It could just be a one off.

p.s. if it were light leak from spool in post then you would expect first frames on spool to be the worst affected and not those in the middle or end.

p.p.s. was film ever frozen for storage ?

[KeithM]

The affected frames are not in a consistent sequence or pattern and the degree to which affected frames are damaged also varies. The film was loaded on 21st Nov and posted to the Lab on the 2nd Dec.

[Lostlabours]

The way film sits in a assette partially unravelled a light leak on a corner of the light trap wouldn't necessarily affect the film sitting against the outer casing.

You're looking at a very slight light leak here, nothing else like heat or damp can cause that fogging through the sprocket holes.

Ian

[KeithM]

Thanks for further comments. Prior to receiving the film back from the Lab, I had loaded another colour-neg roll. Have now replaced this with a roll of Tri-X which I will dev at home, so that I will have the test result rather more quickly than having to send it off to a Lab (Christmas post and all that). Will update the thread when the test is complete.

[KeithM]

Well, I ventured forth Mon afternoon in similar conditions to when I shot the colour film (i.e. bright early afternoon sunshine). Finished off the film this morning, developed it and have just taken it from the shower cubicle. Bummer! A small number of frames are affected and the attached image of the leader shows the typical areas. The other frames are Nos 4 and 7. The colour film had 30% frames affected. At the risk of embarrassing myself, I have just looked at the films previously put through the camera and found that the last one (April) has 50% affected. In my defence, at the time and in my ignorance, I put this down to something going wrong when I developed it. Films previous to that are OK.

The consensus seems to indicate a light-leak from the base, but I cannot see any likely light-path. I did notice that the number engraved in the base-plate is different to the camera ser. number. Below are some images of the base plate etc. If anyone can point a finger at a potential culprit, please do so!

[Bill]

While it may look odd is there any way you can put the camera into a black plastic bag from say a 5x7 pack of paper. It will need a tight hole cut for the lens and viewfinder. Run some film, even a few frames, and process. If that is OK then it is the camera if not it may be that it is the cassette. Are you loading in subdued light? If possible can you load the film inside a changing bag or darkroom? That would eliminate light leaks in the cassette.

Are the marks at points where you are moving location and the film is static for a while? If so the leak will be very small and hard to find. Mind you if it is in a half case it is hard to see how light can leak through the base. A real puzzle.

Not the easiest thing to do but the only way is to eliminate things one at a time.

Bill

[GrahamD]

Intrigued by your light leak (as the owner of a IIIF), I did a little trawling round the web - one suggestion for a similar issue on an M3 was that a light leak was occurring when the lens was being changed - not sure if that is relevant to you, but it may be worth running a whole film through with the same lens fitted and seeing if you have the same issues....

[Phil]

Bill - hold the camera as you normally would and just press lightly with your thumbs on the rear centre of the camera. Can you hear a slight 'knocking' where the back flexes and knocks against the internal frame?
My IIIf had that, though I didn't encounter any light leaks. It could be though that the back is flexing and the base cover is slighlty uneven and you are unwittingly pushing it every now and then slightly in bright light.
What you could do (if it does flex) is load a film and try a couple of waste frames with a torch shining against the joint of the base and the camera and push the back . .
Just a thought.
Phil

[Xpres]

Very intriguing! The fogging around the sprocket holes would suggest to me that it's happening on the take up spool at the bottom. So something to do with the base plate. Maybe it is flexing in some way? Or not quite attached properly to the lug?

[John King]

Just a thought, I am not a Leica expert or have a lot of experience in using one, but are you using a reloadable Leica cassette These are usually bomb proof but if it is made by man it can go wrong........the factor is..... when!

[KeithM]

My thanks to you all for the helpful suggestions. As the problem has occurred with three films (Fuji Acros, Fuji Superior X-Tra, Tri-X), the cassettes can be ruled out, as now processing can. Pondering on things last night and examining the base plate internal surfaces with a magnifying glass, the idea of touching the bright parts up with matt-black paint occurred to me. I will try the suggestions (pressing the back, shining a light etc - another forum suggested pointing a flash gun at potential problem areas). Consensus does seem to be that the light is getting into the take-up spool area, seemingly from somewhere low down on the camera. There may be a time-related element to the problem. The worst affected film (>50% frames affected) was in the camera for approximately three weeks, the colour film (circa 30%) ten days and the last film (4 frames, albeit two were the unexposed leader) for just a day. But that maybe just coincidence?

Lens-wise, for all three affected films the same lens has been on the camera.

If all the above fail then it will be sent for repair

Thanks again everybody!

[peterlg]

I shoot with a Leica IIIg and have sort of the same problem. However, I feel sure the problem is not the camera - it was in-depth-serviced by Leica six months ago. I bulk load and that could be a source of light leak. Otherwise there must be something in my handling of the casette that causes the problem. I've put Sherlock Holmes on the track, when he returns I'll tell you where it's going wrong.
Peter

[big paul]

hi Keith
sorry you haven't found the problem yet, its a tribute to the builders of these cameras that it has lasted this long
I think that it probably is in need of a service but worth every penny, as opposed to this modern day junk that lasts one year and one day .....
I had my Nikon f serviced and other things adjusted on it by newton Ellis , it was made in 1968 and is one great camera ......

keep the Faith

[John King]

hi Keith
sorry you haven't found the problem yet, its a tribute to the builders of these cameras that it has lasted this long
I think that it probably is in need of a service but worth every penny, as opposed to this modern day junk that lasts one year and one day .....
I had my Nikon f serviced and other things adjusted on it by newton Ellis , it was made in 1968 and is one great camera ......

keep the Faith

As long as that!!!!:D

[peterlg]

Keith,
it may simply be a question of exposing the casette to too much light. I never paid much attention to this and like to work with strong light. Yesterday I bulk-loaded a piece of film, loaded the casette into the camera, shot some frames and developed as usual - EVERYTHING IN DIM LIGHT. The film is clean and free of any dark patches.
Peter

[KeithM]

Well, on Thursday after much cogitation, I decided to try and force the issue by exposing another film, using long exposures during which I fired a flashgun fitted with a narrow hood at various parts of the body, carefully noting the details of each shot. The film (Acros 100) was immediately unloaded and developed. Result? Zilch, nada, nothing – crystal clear rebates and not a sign of light leakage anywhere…

Differences between this film and the others? The body was not in it's snug-fitting Mr Zhou half-case and most of the shots were taken with the camera resting on the kitchen worktop (do not have the right-size tripod thread). Some however were taken with me gripping the body in one hand (portrait and landscape). The total time that the film spends in the camera does seem to correlate with the extent and number of affected frames.

One bu**eration factor is that two of the sprocket holes in the narrow part of the leader were torn through, which also happened with (I think) the second film I ever put in the camera. Hopefully there are no fragments floating around.

Anyway, back to the drawing board. Bright ideas anyone?

[Susie]

Hi Keith,
I have a lllf and have not had these problems.

I did wonder if there might be a light leak through one of the shutter curtains. If the rubberised fabric is slightly perished, the magnitude of the fogging would be dependent on the period of time between winding on and taking the next shot. This could account for the random occurance, and also for the non-fogging of your last test roll, all taken in quick succession.

Looking at the photo of the inside of the base plate, is there some distortion of the rear 'runner' which could push the film towards the curtain?

Susie

[KeithM]

Hi Susie,

Thanks for the suggestions. Interesting idea about the shutter curtains. However, looking at the negs, some of the worst affected were taken in quick succession whereas some of the non-affected were taken with longer pauses in between (film wound on immediately and lens cap remaining off between shots).

Can't say for sure about the baseplate as I do not have a micrometer to check the parallelism, but there is nothing obvious using No. 1 eyeball.

Looks like I will have to bite the bullet and send it off for servicing in the New Year...