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View Full Version : Why is 8x10 film horrifically expensive in the UK?


Alastair
13th September 2013, 07:10 PM
Or am I just looking in the wrong places? Ilford FP4+ 8x10 is priced at over £120 a box at most places I've looked, whereas at B&H it is $109 for a box. Even in Australia where I've just returned from and the cost of everything makes you cry and sweat, a box only cost $120 (£69).

I don't understand why it's so expensive here? 4x5 seems quite reasonable and sane.. but 8x10? What's the deal? I thought Ilford was a UK company and their film was manufactured here? How can it be significantly more expensive than Australia?

Mike O'Pray
13th September 2013, 07:27 PM
Alastair, here we go again, is what I say. Others here but, possibly not all, will endorse this sentiment .

The price differential mainly between the U.K. and U.S. but in some cases elsewhere as you have discovered has long been a source of concern to most U.K. users and I don't believe we have ever had an explanation that stands up to scrutiny except the one I give below which will never be admitted to by the maker.

Just to add fuel to the fire I recently discovered that the difference on bulk roll film between the best U.K source ( Harman Express itself) and a U.S. source was £21 or about (60%) for the same item

My view is that we are charged what the maker thinks the market will bear and this is underlined by the maker's belief that while it may be cheaper for the customer to re-import, most users will not think it worth the hassle.

No doubt you will get others' views which may be different but what I think we will all agree on here at FADU is that, as things stand, nothing will change in the near future on this differential no matter what we say or conclude amongst ourselves.

I sympathise and can only "cry into my beer" alongside you

Mike

andreios
13th September 2013, 07:53 PM
I can understand you... Ilford film is painfully expensive here as well, but it is the same story with FOMA. I am practically all the time buying foma stuff from Germany or even Norway - way cheaper than from the factory or local sellers.

skellum
13th September 2013, 08:12 PM
Many years ago I watched a documentary about the tortuous birth of the DeLorean sportscar. It showed pre-production cars being displayed in places like shopping centres whilst marketing men asked the public what they thought of the car.
One question, asked in all innocence, was "and what do you think a car like this costs?".
This turned out to be the only question that mattered- the price of the car was pitched not on the basis of manufacturing cost or margins, but on what they thought they could get for it. As a callow youth I was shocked, but 'business' is not about fairness.
DeLorean, Ilford, Shell, Santander, Epson, British Gas et al exist to profit. I love and use (almost exclusively) Ilford materials. I wish they were cheaper, in which case I'd shoot more and print bigger, but you can bet they've crunched the numbers in every possible cost Vs volume scenario they can think of, and for now they charge what they do because they can.
If nobody would pay they'd think again. Personally I'm sticking with PanF, HP5 and SFX200 in 120 and 35mm, all on Ilford Warmtone FB paper with Ilford dev and selenium toners. Yummy!
Of course, I have discovered Fomapan 100 for my 5x4 work and after a rocky start I love it. Sorry, Ilford

Alastair
13th September 2013, 08:59 PM
To me, it only seems to be the 8x10 which is seriously overpriced. 4x5 is quite comparable with elsewhere but I'm blown away that I can buy a box of 8x10 from Australia, one of the most expensive places in the world, and generally scarily expensive for film related products, and have it shipped here and still save at least £30.

I guess that's what I'll be doing.

DaveP
13th September 2013, 10:45 PM
To me, it only seems to be the 8x10 which is seriously overpriced. 4x5 is quite comparable with elsewhere but I'm blown away that I can buy a box of 8x10 from Australia, one of the most expensive places in the world, and generally scarily expensive for film related products, and have it shipped here and still save at least £30.

I guess that's what I'll be doing.

From your prices, if you say a 25 sheets box of 10x8 is about 120 quid, then that matches up roughly as about 4x the cost of a box of 5x4, which is about right, the last box I bought was 35 quid. Actually the 10x8 is looking marginally cheaper there by unit area, probably accounting for the lower economy of boxing up 5x4s.

So UK ilford prices in general may well be dearer an abroad, but from the above I don't see 10x8 as being disproportionally expensive compared to 5x4.

Alastair
14th September 2013, 10:13 AM
From your prices, if you say a 25 sheets box of 10x8 is about 120 quid, then that matches up roughly as about 4x the cost of a box of 5x4, which is about right, the last box I bought was 35 quid. Actually the 10x8 is looking marginally cheaper there by unit area, probably accounting for the lower economy of boxing up 5x4s.

So UK ilford prices in general may well be dearer an abroad, but from the above I don't see 10x8 as being disproportionally expensive compared to 5x4.

When you put it like that, I guess it makes sense and you're probably right. I wonder if the Australian shops I used to order film from possibly got a deal on their 8x10. I'll certainly buy my 4x5 locally anyway.

Anyway, whinge over! I've only been in the country two weeks and already I'm having a moan! :)

Lostlabours
14th September 2013, 01:51 PM
It's right to moan because we are being ripped off, but beware B&H now pay the Tax & VAT direct and their shipping charges to the UK are excessive as well.

I shoot 10x8 but when my stock of Fortepan 200 and EFKE PL25 run out I'll switch to Foma. I'd prefer to support Ilford but there's no way I'm paying that much more than US photographers.

Ian

Mike O'Pray
14th September 2013, 04:59 PM
It's right to moan because we are being ripped off, but beware B&H now pay the Tax & VAT direct and their shipping charges to the UK are excessive as well.

Ian
Enough to make re-importing by the consumer only marginally cheaper than buying in the U.K.?

Certainly as a maker out to maximise profit I'd be aware of the likely cost of consumers in one market trying to re-import from another cheaper one and would pitch my dearer market price to come close to what it might cost to re-import and factor in any profit the likes of B&H try to make out of the effort of selling to the U.K.

That way the rebels, out to change the world of "orderly pricing," can be kept at bay and the Winter Palace remains safe from being stormed:D


Mike

Lostlabours
14th September 2013, 05:09 PM
Enough to make re-importing by the consumer only marginally cheaper than buying in the U.K.?

Mike

Enough to make it a less attractive proposition. I have a B&H account which I can use. In the past I've had film sent by US contacts and I do the same with Ebay or Forum purchases where the sellers only ship in the US.

It's the combination of high postal charges from B&H and the Import Duty & VAT being payaqble on the Item + shipping total, plus a handling fee.

With LF film it's not a case of a differential in tax (VAT) which would add 20% to a base price it's the over 100% difference in final price in the UK compared to the US. The film I would buy is free shipping in the US.

Ian

chisel
14th September 2013, 09:15 PM
The cheap route to 8x10 seems to be x-ray film...... and is certainly what I would use to learn with. After that you'd have to try and see. I bought a box of shanghai film for my 5x4 starting off. It was great to learn on, but every other sheet had QC issues - odd marks and the like. I never,ever see that with Ilford. IF you spent a couple of hundred quid on a trip somewhere and ended up with marks on your film, any savings made would be negated very quickly.

Alastair
15th September 2013, 09:48 AM
The cheap route to 8x10 seems to be x-ray film...... and is certainly what I would use to learn with. After that you'd have to try and see. I bought a box of shanghai film for my 5x4 starting off. It was great to learn on, but every other sheet had QC issues - odd marks and the like. I never,ever see that with Ilford. IF you spent a couple of hundred quid on a trip somewhere and ended up with marks on your film, any savings made would be negated very quickly.

I certainly wouldn't and don't compromise on my choice of film. It's expensive but not that expensive! I have thought of X-ray film but to be honest, I'm probably going to order a couple of boxes from the US. Talking of which, if anyone wants to go in for an order and split the shipping costs, then let me know! Will be putting an order in around the end of the month.

Richard Gould
15th September 2013, 10:50 AM
I gave up on Ilford a while ago now, I have the feeling of being ripped of by them looking st the prices here compared to the USA,, for me it is Foma all the time, and has been for a number of years now, with no QC problems in either 35mm or 120. I suggest you give Fomapan 100 a go in 10x8, FP4+ or HP5+ £127.33 for 25 sheets, Fomapan £97.76 for 50 sheets, or look at the new adox chs 2 ,I certainly wouldn,t pay Ilford prices when there are good alternitives for half the price, If I found the alternatives were not as good then yes, but I find Foma films to be very good indeed, and I use a lot of them.
Richard

Bob
16th September 2013, 07:14 PM
When comparing US and UK prices be aware that US companies always quote prices excluding taxes whereas the UK and the rest of Europe always include VAT. In this case there is still a significant difference, but in many such cases the few percentage points difference may be covered by economies of scale and the generally lower margins of US distributors and retailers.

Lostlabours
16th September 2013, 07:51 PM
When comparing US and UK prices be aware that US companies always quote prices excluding taxes whereas the UK and the rest of Europe always include VAT. In this case there is still a significant difference, but in many such cases the few percentage points difference may be covered by economies of scale and the generally lower margins of US distributors and retailers.

Whenn the UK price is more than twice the US price we have to feel badly let down by all the companies in the UK supply chain that's manufacturer & dealers.

Ian

Bob
16th September 2013, 08:23 PM
Whenn the UK price is more than twice the US price we have to feel badly let down by all the companies in the UK supply chain that's manufacturer & dealers.

IanWhich, were it twice the price, it would be, but as it isn't, it's not...

Take out the VAT and you are looking at 100 GBP Vs 109 USD. Current USD/GBP exchange rate is 0.63, so US price in GBP = £68.67 = almost a third cheaper. Still, as I already said, a significant difference, but not, as others have pointed out, typical of the differences in film prices.

Why there is such a difference on 8x10 only Ilford can tell.

Cheers, Bob.

Tony Marlow
17th September 2013, 06:33 AM
When looking at buying from the USA do you allow for import duties and the min. handling charges by the likes of UPS? This can remove most of the savings in price which you do not find out until the parcel is delivered to your door but not handed over until you pay up.

Tony

Lostlabours
17th September 2013, 06:26 PM
Which, were it twice the price, it would be, but as it isn't, it's not...
Cheers, Bob.

B&H $114.95 - £72.25 HP5 100 sheets 5x4 Silverprint £37.81 25's x4 £151.24 / Ag £144.71

B&H $99.97 - £62.83 HP5 25 sheets 10x8 Silverprint £127.33 / Ag £124.15

Those are the prices with tax before shipping B&H are half the price. B&H ship the 100 sheets of 5x4 HP5 free inside the US.I get items sent to a friend and the sent USPS which isn't expensive.

Ian

Lostlabours
18th September 2013, 09:20 AM
Looking at alternatives the new Adox CHS II works out at £82.80 for 25 sheets of 10x8 direct from Fotoimpex., that's 2/3rd the price of HP5 in the UK but more than the £93.72 I'd pay for 50 sheets of Fomapan 100.

Ian

Mike O'Pray
18th September 2013, 04:19 PM
I had a quick look at buying from B&H as a U.K. based customer. I chose a powdered chemical just for fun and the shipping and customs charges which are levied directly by B&H so are unavoidable are absolutely horrendous.

This may not translate directly into importing 10x8 sheets or other items where the gap between U.K. and U.S. prices are very large but it would seem that you'd have to do as Ian does which is get a U.S. based friend to buy and then send to you.

I don't suppose this substantial "restraint" on buying from the U.S. has escaped Ilford's notice.

Mike

Adrian
10th November 2014, 11:30 PM
Have you seen the price of colour negative 10x8 film here in the uk? Over 200 quid for 10 sheets of Portra 400. Who uses film like that on a regular basis? Must be something very special.

Argentum
10th November 2014, 11:33 PM
Haven't you heard of "RIP off Britain" ?

That's irony for you, "RIP" for a country that's in the throws of finally turning it's toes up.

Mike O'Pray
10th November 2014, 11:44 PM
That's irony for you, "RIP" for a country that's in the throws of finally turning it's toes up.

Is it that bad? In which case, to mangle a famous quote from the Sunday Express by John Junor "Pass the bitter almond pill, Alice":D

Mike

Argentum
11th November 2014, 12:26 AM
Alice? Who the...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUy83PKjkOI&spfreload=10

B&W Neil
11th November 2014, 08:57 AM
It is not just Ilford's FP4+ and HP5+ 10x8 sheet films that are expensive here and cheaper elsewhere. Check out their ortho 10x8 sheet film prices - :eek:


Neil.

Lostlabours
11th November 2014, 09:26 AM
I'm happy to use Fomapan 100 or 200film particularly in larger formats and buy from Fomafoto.com in Norway. While my preference would be to use Ilford films the cost is prohibitive on LF sizes over 5x4.

At the moment I have some Adox PL25 and Fortepan 200 left in 10x8 but will switch to Foma when they 3 or 4 boxes are finished. I bought 4 boxes of Fomapan 200 two 5x4 and two 7x5 from the US last month, a private sale but I saved a significant amount.

Ian

JOReynolds
11th November 2014, 11:04 AM
...as a maker out to maximise profit...
I think this statement should read '...as a maker out to survive in a collapsing market...'.
We need to think carefully about this issue. Ilford has negotiated a precarious path over the last few years and has lived to tell the tale.
The remnants of Eastman Kodak also intend to survive. They state on their website that their B&W films '...remain a viable part of the KODAK PROFESSIONAL Film portfolio'. Ilford has to compete with them on their home market, which may mean low prices, so if you buy grey from the US and pay shipping and import duty to save a little, you are depriving Ilford of income.
If you like Ilford film and you want it to remain on sale, buy it in the UK and keep Ilford afloat. The extra is not a charitable donation - it's pure self-interest.

richardw
11th November 2014, 12:05 PM
I think this statement should read '...as a maker out to survive in a collapsing market...'.
We need to think carefully about this issue. Ilford has negotiated a precarious path over the last few years and has lived to tell the tale.
The remnants of Eastman Kodak also intend to survive. They state on their website that their B&W films '...remain a viable part of the KODAK PROFESSIONAL Film portfolio'. Ilford has to compete with them on their home market, which may mean low prices, so if you buy grey from the US and pay shipping and import duty to save a little, you are depriving Ilford of income.
If you like Ilford film and you want it to remain on sale, buy it in the UK and keep Ilford afloat. The extra is not a charitable donation - it's pure self-interest.

I quite agree with you about survival...

In this day and age why do we have to buy through a "channel"?

It only adds cost.

Film needs no showroom or demonstration to sell it.

ILFORD products are well known and trusted, they could be sold to us direct via the Internet at prices that don't have to pander to a channel, which fears being undercut.

The special size making orders could be run all year round via an app. with deliveries once or twice a year to fulfil them.

Another advantage of working like this is that ILFORD would be aware of all its customer base and able to promote new products and services to us all, instantly.

richard

B&W Neil
11th November 2014, 12:39 PM
I quite agree with you about survival...

In this day and age why do we have to buy through a "channel"?

It only adds cost.

Film needs no showroom or demonstration to sell it.

ILFORD products are well known and trusted, they could be sold to us direct via the Internet at prices that don't have to pander to a channel, which fears being undercut.

The special size making orders could be run all year round via an app. with deliveries once or twice a year to fulfil them.

Another advantage of working like this is that ILFORD would be aware of all its customer base and able to promote new products and services to us all, instantly.

richard


Ilford / Harman already have a UK based direct outlet - its called 'Harman Express'.

Their direct prices are about the same as those you would expect from the dealers but they do have the occasional voucher scheme.

The problem is if you are putting in a large order that includes none Ilford / Harman items is you won't be able to buy those items from Harman Express.

Neil.

Mike O'Pray
11th November 2014, 01:22 PM
Alice? Who the...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUy83PKjkOI&spfreload=10

A mangled quote from the Sunday Express journalist who was one of that paper's "characters" but who has been dead a good number of years. He was called John Junor and was famous for saying somewhere in most of his articles when he had covered a point on which he felt the words or actions of his target was particularly abhorrent "pass the sick-bag, Alice" to indicate disgust.

I thought that bitter almond pills as in cyanide might be more appropriate than sick-bag in my mangled quote if the "end is nigh" in this country:D

Mike

JOReynolds
11th November 2014, 05:03 PM
Haven't you heard of "RIP off Britain" ?
That's irony for you, "RIP" for a country that's in the throws of finally turning it's toes up.
It's fashionable to disparage our country. I live abroad for part of the year and I travel a lot. By comparison, it seems we're not doing too badly, so you might be correct in describing it as a 'sceptred isle' - it depends which paper you read. By the way, it's 'throes' (shorter OED).

Argentum
11th November 2014, 05:31 PM
It's fashionable to disparage our country. I live abroad for part of the year and I travel a lot. By comparison, it seems we're not doing too badly, so you might be correct in describing it as a 'sceptred isle' - it depends which paper you read. By the way, it's 'throes' (shorter OED).

Twasn't my quote...



This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,--
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

William Shakespeare (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/William_Shakespeare/), "King Richard II", Act 2 scene 1

richardw
11th November 2014, 05:40 PM
Ilford / Harman already have a UK based direct outlet - its called 'Harman Express'.

Their direct prices are about the same as those you would expect from the dealers but they do have the occasional voucher scheme.

The problem is if you are putting in a large order that includes none Ilford / Harman items is you won't be able to buy those items from Harman Express.

Neil.

Exactly! Already part of the infrastructure is in place with Harman Express. Get the prices right now and couple that with a first class fulfilment system and they could rule the world.

richard

JOReynolds
11th November 2014, 05:42 PM
Against the envy of less happier lands,--
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
I take pleasure in contributing to a forum that includes Shakespearian quotations.

JOReynolds
11th November 2014, 05:46 PM
...Harman Express. Get the prices right now and couple that with a first class fulfilment system and they could rule the world.
Harman Express's prices for MGIV RC and 120 Delta are the highest of all FADU's sponsors. And they charge p&p on top for orders under £50.

Peltigera
11th November 2014, 06:04 PM
If Harman do not see fit to reduce their prices I can only assume they are meeting their sales and profit targets with the prices as they are. Reducing prices might increase sales a bit but it is likely to have a big negative effect on profit - that price reduction comes entirely off profit as costs will remain the same. A 10% reduction in price will mean they need a 30% or 40% increase in sales just to make the same profit. Is there sufficient demand in the UK to produce that increase in sales?

B&W Neil
11th November 2014, 07:10 PM
Exactly! Already part of the infrastructure is in place with Harman Express. Get the prices right now and couple that with a first class fulfilment system and they could rule the world.

richard

I wouldn't want anyone to think I was actually recommending they should use them without checking the prices elsewhere :shock:

Reduction in prices ??? I think not!


Neil.

Argentum
11th November 2014, 07:24 PM
It's fashionable to disparage our country. I live abroad for part of the year and I travel a lot. By comparison, it seems we're not doing too badly, so you might be correct in describing it as a 'sceptred isle' - it depends which paper you read. By the way, it's 'throes' (shorter OED).

I have worked quite a bit in mainland Europe (Before 2008). It depends on the country. Germany and Switzerland are far better organised with just about much better everything in terms of national infrastructures for transport, health, etc etc. farnce is pretty good too. Scandinavian countries too.
But when you start looking at some others things aren't so good.

But that isn't the point. The UK has failed since the 60s/70s to adjust and keep pace. Generally speaking all the things the country could afford back then it can't afford now and its not heading in the right direction. Taking comfort from other countries doing worse really doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned.

richardw
12th November 2014, 12:18 AM
If Harman do not see fit to reduce their prices I can only assume they are meeting their sales and profit targets with the prices as they are. Reducing prices might increase sales a bit but it is likely to have a big negative effect on profit - that price reduction comes entirely off profit as costs will remain the same. A 10% reduction in price will mean they need a 30% or 40% increase in sales just to make the same profit. Is there sufficient demand in the UK to produce that increase in sales?

I don't believe they need to reduce their prices. I believe they should get rid of the channel so we don't have to pay its prices. The current prices on Harman Express are high to satisfy the channel that no undercutting is being done. No channel would mean that ILFORD/Harman would be able to offer us prices near those they give the channel right now, with no fear of upsetting the channel as it would no longer exist. Done well ILFORD/Harman would make more money, be in direct contact with its actual clients instead of middle men, and we would enjoy lower prices so use more ILFORD/Harman products...

richardw

B&W Neil
12th November 2014, 07:26 AM
I don't believe they need to reduce their prices. I believe they should get rid of the channel so we don't have to pay its prices. The current prices on Harman Express are high to satisfy the channel that no undercutting is being done. No channel would mean that ILFORD/Harman would be able to offer us prices near those they give the channel right now, with no fear of upsetting the channel as it would no longer exist. Done well ILFORD/Harman would make more money, be in direct contact with its actual clients instead of middle men, and we would enjoy lower prices so use more ILFORD/Harman products...

richardw

This is an idea that I hope I see never happen.If one company had the monopoly what do think would happen then? Even higher prices would be my guess.

Additionally, as good as Ilford's products are they do not manufacture everything and we need to have the middle men to stock those items to keep our creativity alive.

Neil.

richardw
12th November 2014, 12:06 PM
This is an idea that I hope I see never happen.If one company had the monopoly what do think would happen then? Even higher prices would be my guess.

Additionally, as good as Ilford's products are they do not manufacture everything and we need to have the middle men to stock those items to keep our creativity alive.

Neil.

With Kodak, Fuji, Adox, Foma and others around, there is hardly likely to ever be a monopoly if ILFORD/Harman chooses to engage with us directly. The present channel puts another layer of mouths to feed on our backs. Getting rid of it could allow ILFORD/Harman to increase its own margins whilst at the same time reducing the prices to us.

richard

JOReynolds
12th November 2014, 12:33 PM
The present channel puts another layer of mouths to feed on our backs. Getting rid of it could allow ILFORD/Harman to increase its own margins whilst at the same time reducing the prices to us.
The same could be suggested for shops selling kitchen equipment, cameras, books, confectionery, booze in bottles, non-prescribed pharmaceuticals, soap, bathroom cleaning products, toys, kettles, crockery, toasters, tools, mattresses, car accessories, hardware, artists' materials, gloss paint, Christmas decorations, branded fireworks, cellphones, airline and train tickets, non-perishable groceries... The list goes on, which wipes out the high street, leaving only high-price corner shops.

richardw
12th November 2014, 03:26 PM
The same could be suggested for shops selling kitchen equipment, cameras, books, confectionery, booze in bottles, non-prescribed pharmaceuticals, soap, bathroom cleaning products, toys, kettles, crockery, toasters, tools, mattresses, car accessories, hardware, artists' materials, gloss paint, Christmas decorations, branded fireworks, cellphones, airline and train tickets, non-perishable groceries... The list goes on, which wipes out the high street, leaving only high-price corner shops.

Does film need selling? Most of the items you list are best sold by shops. When was the last time you wandered by shelves of film and picked up a few on impulse and dropped them into your trolley or basket? If you know what you want exactly then there is no need for an intermediary.

richard

Peltigera
13th November 2014, 01:58 PM
Without the intermediaries, I would need to order from Foma for my B&W film, Agfa for my colour film, Someone else for the developer, fixer, someone else for the developing tank/reels, . . .

Each would charge me post and packaging costing me more, it would take me a lot longer to do my shopping and, yes, I do buy on impulse. I usually use AG Photographic and have a quick look at things I am not intending to buy - usually I stick to what I went to the website for but just occasionally I will see something and think to try it.

Mike O'Pray
13th November 2014, 06:01 PM
I might be wrong but I suspect that on balance it wouldn't be beneficial for us to only have Harman Express as our sole supplier of Harman goods for the kind of reasons Peltigera has stated.

Perhaps more importantly and likely to be more significant Harman has also concluded that it isn't in its long-term interests to try and cut out "the middleman" either

It might in theory result in Harman products being cheaper but might not work out that way in practice and could give us customers all sorts of other problems if retailers then didn't generate enough business to stay afloat

It still leaves the question of whether Harman's higher prices in the case of some products in the U.K. and the rest of Europe compared to the U.S. is partially, fully or not at all justified but that's a different matter and one I have given up on in the same way I have given up on solving the mystery of the "Marie Celeste" :D

Mike

skellum
13th November 2014, 07:39 PM
Does film need selling?

It does now. Let's remember that most of grew up with film as the only way to take photographs. You wanted to take a photo, you bought film. What took 'selling' was cameras- which format, which brand. Even in medium format, which was a smaller niche than 35mm, we had Bronica, Mamiya, Pentax, Contax, Hasselblad, the Russian copies and more.
If you want an analogy, think of motoring. You might angst over which car you want, but do you think twice about who's petrol you put in it??

Today, film sells in (relatively) tiny volumes. If you don't like the price now, wait 'til you see what's coming. You bet I'd love it to be cheaper, but I don't grudge Ag, Silverprint et al their profit- they carry multiple brands (so in one order I can have PanF and Velvia) and there are times I've found stuff on the websites I didn't know I needed until I saw it :p

Argentum
13th November 2014, 08:55 PM
pointless whining about it even if it does make you mad. The manufacturers will always set price at what they can get for it, especially when they have a captive audience of zealots.

Look at the price of a new Leica for example. How is it that when every other manufacturer could produce a quality camera and lenses for half the price that Leica could, and still do, get away with charging twice as much.

The answer is simple, they are targetting a demographic who will pay whatever is asked for having being told what they are buying is the best available. Whether it really is the best available is irrelvant. It's what the buyer perceives to be the best or just plain desires that counts.

If the price point is too high for you then don't buy it and go digital. Only problem with that is that the best digital is even more expensive. Who on here owns a Phase One or Digi Hasselblad?

Lostlabours
14th November 2014, 08:33 AM
p
If the price point is too high for you then don't buy it and go digital. Only problem with that is that the best digital is even more expensive. Who on here owns a Phase One or Digi Hasselblad?


That attitude misses the point that Ilford sheet films are half the price we pay here in the US.

It's simple to buy film from another manufacturer, there are no digital backs for 10x8 cameras.

Ian

Peltigera
14th November 2014, 10:56 AM
if you want to compare prices in the USA and UK you also have to compare population size, numbers of competitors, disposable incomes, tax levels, psychology of the populations and a myriad of other factors. The two markets are far from being identical. The bit that concerns the marketing people is elasticity - how much sales change for a given change in price. If the market in the USA is fairly elastic Harman need to charge a lowish price to get the sales - if the market in the UK is not elastic, Harman need to charge more. It has nothing to do with 'fair' or production costs or % mark-ups - it is to do with enough profit at year end to stay in business.

Lostlabours
14th November 2014, 03:26 PM
There's a bigger price differential than is normal for similar products with Ilford LF film comparing the US & UK. This makes it a considerable saving buying from the US even with the additional postage/shipping, Import Duty, VAT etc.

There's no doubt that Ilford would have a larger share of the UK LF film market if they charged fairer prices here. No-one's saying it should be the same prices in the US & UK but the free market means that competition should bring prices closer than they are at the moment.

It's a no brainer really,

Delta 100 10x8 25 sheets from Silverprint £137.00 (£274 for 50 sheets)

Fomapan 200 10x8 50 sheets from my Foma supplier £84.

Ian

Richard Gould
14th November 2014, 03:43 PM
I have kept out of this as I don't use LF, but what I think is very unfair pricing is the main reason that I long ago stopped using Ilford film, we are paying a high prmium for using their film and paper, and it is made here in the UK,almost double what they pay in the US and I have long questioned the reason, but have never had any form of answer from Harman about this matter, in spite of repeated Emails and letters, which has made me conclude that Harman simply do not care about the home market, and perhaps we are subsidising the prices charged in the USA, this is why I tried Foma, I liked it and have never had a problem with their films, and will continue to use it as long as it is made, and I don't at the moment see a time when it won't be available, so sorry Ilford you long ago lost a UK customer,
Richard

Argentum
14th November 2014, 03:55 PM
perhaps the real reason harman can sell it at those prices in the UK is that we British are stupid enough to pay them whereas the americans won't touch it with a barge pole at those prices.
And harman do a lot of other non silver halide business with the US and need to keep them sweet.

Peltigera
14th November 2014, 03:57 PM
There's no doubt that Ilford would have a larger share of the UK LF film market if they charged fairer prices here.
But would the larger share of what will be a very small market mean larger profits? There is no point in selling twice as much stock for half the profit.

monst
14th November 2014, 04:02 PM
i would buy ilford large format film if it wasn't for the price. it is ok in the smaller formats but for 5x4 and above it's just ridiculous. nearly double the price for the same stuff that is manufactured here is totally taking the mickey.

Lostlabours
14th November 2014, 05:03 PM
i would buy ilford large format film if it wasn't for the price. it is ok in the smaller formats but for 5x4 and above it's just ridiculous. nearly double the price for the same stuff that is manufactured here is totally taking the mickey.

I have never bought Ilford 10x8 films, if I did it would only be from the US £70.32 a box compared to £129 for 25 sheets of HP5 is a considerable saving. I'd bring it back hand luggage on a planned trip there or factor in the taxes and get a friend to post it - not to avoid Taxes but the handling fees being charged now by some US suppliers to take the taxes at source before they ship abroad.


But would the larger share of what will be a very small market mean larger profits? There is no point in selling twice as much stock for half the profit.

It's not just Ilford losing out it's also their UK stockists. If Ilford applied fairer price differentials they wouldn't lose sales abroad (where they are making less profit) or to competitors.

I stopped using Ilford films in the late 80's in favour of AP25 & AP100, later APX25 & APX100 and also TMax 100 & 400. When Agfa dropped APX100 in sheet film I only used Tmax. However I switched back to Ilfird films because I had trouble buying Tmax films in South America and Turkey, Ilford and surprisingly Foma films were easy to find.

So for the past 7 years Ilford Delta 100 & 400 and HP5 (5x4) have been my main films for project work, I also keep stocks of Fomapan 100 & 200 as a backup but have found they are both excellent films 120 & LF - I could happily switch to Foma films.

Ian

DaveP
15th November 2014, 08:43 AM
Whilst I am concerned about the price of large format film, I think even with 10x8 film from Ilford at full RRP running at £4-5 a sheet when you consider the total cost of photography (cameras, tripod, filters, bags, petrol, wear and tear to your car, time, darkroom clobber, buying a house with a spare room, scanners, computers, websites, chemicals, storage, fridges/freezers, darkslides, mounts, frames, books, electricity to power the above) then it's still not a major cost. Especially if like me you shoot low volume so all the overheads from a greater percentage of the total cost.

Last time I bought any Ilford 10x8 by shopping around a judicious use of a discount code I paid about £90 for a box of 25. Not that much more than from USA and certainly a lot more convenient, and no more expensive than the new Adox stuff either. Given the quality of the Ilford materials, and the support they offer, and the fact you're supporting British business, I'm "happy" to pay that price, or at least as happy as I'm going to be. Having said that, if they were lower that would make me happy, but not if long term it was not viable. I'd rather pay high prices my entire life for a consistent product rather than pay less now then see Ilford go out of business in a few years.

I'm sure Foma stuff is fine for a lot of people, but the stories of emulsion defects always put me off.

As others have said, the US prices for Ilford are cheaper as they have to be if they want any of the notoriously patriotic US market to be swayed away from Kodak film. That's not the case in the UK. You've got to remember domestic sales only forms about 10% of the Ilford market. But as Ian says, if you're not bothered about supporting the UK photographic retailers on which we depend then you're free to buy your film from the USA.

Lostlabours
15th November 2014, 09:02 AM
It wasn't foma who had emulsion defects it was EFKE an entirely different company.

The issues with EFKE were at the time Agfa had just stopped production, Ilford were in voluntary administration, and the US company J&C were taking everything they could from EFKE regardless of the quality. J&C were also selling Calbe R09 and passing it off as Rodinal in imitation packaging. J&C also sold chinese film cut to paper sizes 5x4, 5x7, 10x8 which were over sized for DDS. They ceased trading not long after. J&C gave EFKE films a bad name.

Foma films don't have a quality problem. I've used a lot of EFKE & Foma films without any problems, I started using EFKE films in the early 70's because the slow film EFKE Kb/R/Pl 25 was quite unique. I wouldn't use any film that would compromise quality.

I would rather support Ilford and UK retailers which is why I make these points about pricing being unfair in the UK, it's LF film rather than the rest of their products, but when the differences are so large a limited budget means you need to shop carefully.

Ian

Richard Gould
15th November 2014, 10:06 AM
Like Ian I have used a lot of Foma film, both 200 and 400, in 35mm and 120 over quite a few years now, since I gave up on Ilford, it is now the only black and white film I use, and I have yet to have any problems with it, Efke had problems, right up to the end, I think it was due to the conditions in which it was coated, It was lovely film but went though periods of production problems, but personally I enjoy Foma film with no problems, and would reccomend it to anyone as one of the great films on the market today, with the only caveat in that it does need a little more care in handling, but that is a small price for a reasonably priced film that produces great results,
Richard

richardw
15th November 2014, 11:41 AM
I know what DaveP means, I wouldn't say I was "happy" but instead I'm "prepared" to pay. Nevertheless, it is difficult to feel that UK clients are getting a good deal when prices are compared with those of ILFORD film abroad, where it has had to be transported and import taxes paid and yet still works out far more economical than at home without any of those additional costs.

I buy ILFORD film in the larger and faster sizes (100 ISO upwards) simply because I believe it to be the best available, also I've used ILFORD films for 55 years so have acquired a degree of product loyalty...

Who is the guilty party here?

Does ILFORD/Harman charge the channel high prices so these have to be passed on to us?

Or is the channel dictating the retail prices and ILFORD/Harman are obliged to support these by keeping the prices high on Harman Express?

richard

DaveP
15th November 2014, 01:16 PM
It wasn't foma who had emulsion defects it was EFKE an entirely different company.

The issues with EFKE were at the time Agfa had just stopped production, Ilford were in voluntary administration, and the US company J&C were taking everything they could from EFKE regardless of the quality. J&C were also selling Calbe R09 and passing it off as Rodinal in imitation packaging. J&C also sold chinese film cut to paper sizes 5x4, 5x7, 10x8 which were over sized for DDS. They ceased trading not long after. J&C gave EFKE films a bad name.

Foma films don't have a quality problem. I've used a lot of EFKE & Foma films without any problems, I started using EFKE films in the early 70's because the slow film EFKE Kb/R/Pl 25 was quite unique. I wouldn't use any film that would compromise quality.

I would rather support Ilford and UK retailers which is why I make these points about pricing being unfair in the UK, it's LF film rather than the rest of their products, but when the differences are so large a limited budget means you need to shop carefully.

Ian

That's all interesting Ian. From what I had gathered reading online people seemed to be having emulsion/coating defects with Foma relatively recently, but its hard to pin down exactly what with that type of thing being sporadic. A what point did the Foma stuff stop being made by Efke then?

What worries me when contemplating shooting Foma in sheet film is unlike rollfilm or 35mm I wouldn't be rattling off umpteen similar shots of a particular subject/scene or having brackets to fall back on if one shot has a defect. One scene, one sheet of film, one chance.

Argentum
15th November 2014, 01:53 PM
http://www.macodirect.de/254cm-8x10-c-746_750_763_389.html

only a tad more than US prices (if at all), no import duties and reasonable shipping costs.

You guys just need to look around some more.

AND

calculating from that site a roll of Delta 100 36x24 works out at 0.107 euro per square inch of film (5,45 EUR for 1 roll)
a box of 25 8x10 works out at 0.078 euro per square inch of film (155,00 EUR for box).

So is it really that expensive, after all its cheaper than 35mm film at that price.

Lostlabours
15th November 2014, 02:05 PM
That's all interesting Ian. From what I had gathered reading online people seemed to be having emulsion/coating defects with Foma relatively recently, but its hard to pin down exactly what with that type of thing being sporadic. A what point did the Foma stuff stop being made by Efke then?

What worries me when contemplating shooting Foma in sheet film is unlike rollfilm or 35mm I wouldn't be rattling off umpteen similar shots of a particular subject/scene or having brackets to fall back on if one shot has a defect. One scene, one sheet of film, one chance.


There's NO connection between Foma and EFKE and never has been, as I said earlier they are entirely different companies.

I've never heard of coating defects with Foma films. It's generally not realised that Foma have links with Fuji, they do subcontract confectioning for Fuji, slitting/packaging some Fuji materials for the European market in a joint factory.

I only began using Foma films because they were easy to find abroad as a back up to my Ilford stock and initially only used Foma for speculative non project work but found the quality to be consistent and the films giving excellent results on a par with the other films I've used.

Ian

DaveP
15th November 2014, 02:17 PM
I didn't have to look very far....http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=8012

Argentum
15th November 2014, 02:45 PM
Correction, I just checked out B&H price for 25 8x10 delta 100 and it would work out significantly more expensive to get it from US.

Approx 104 GBP plus import duty and 20% VAT on top of all of that.

Richard Gould
15th November 2014, 03:30 PM
I must have used fomapan 200/400 120 and 35mm in the hundreds of rolls over a few years now and, as I have often said, the quality of the film is and always has been first class for me, I could not afford to use bad film, I will not and never would eccomise on quality, and so I will continue to use Fomapan as long as it is available. I would reccomend it to anyone, I have also, in the past, had bad rolls of Ilford and for that matter Kodak film, The one thing to remember is that Fomapan needs careful handeling when wet, and that they do not like Stop bath, so use a water stop and you will be fine, the problems reported with Fomapan, in my experiance is down to poor handleing and processing, They only time I found tramlines on a roll of 120 was a camera problem, I was using a mask in a camera for 645, and the mask scratched the film, I sorted the mask and now no more tramlines, so I say give it a chance
Richard

Lostlabours
15th November 2014, 04:41 PM
Correction, I just checked out B&H price for 25 8x10 delta 100 and it would work out significantly more expensive to get it from US.

Approx 104 GBP plus import duty and 20% VAT on top of all of that.

How do you get $109.95 a box to equate to £104 ? it's £70.32

B&H will add the tax & VAT and pay it direct if they ship to the UK that might be the £104 if it is that's still a big saving compared to the usual £137 here.

Just doing a dummy order a box works out at £101 after paying shipping, duty & tax (I added in other film as I wouldn't purchase just one box as the shipping charges are high otherwise).

Ian

Argentum
15th November 2014, 09:05 PM
because they add US tax and not UK import duty and VAT which is added on when it reaches the UK. And that is added on to the product price including shipping.

So you pay US sales tax and then shipping, then duty on the lot and then VAT on the lot including duty.

Oh, and if you select the UK tax pay now option the price is $249.10 from B&H which is 158.913 GBP

or $176.15 if you don't pay the UK duty and VAT to them which is 112.419 GBP before UK duty and VAT.

Lostlabours
16th November 2014, 08:51 AM
B&H are adding the UK taxes if you opt for it so no hidden extras but the shipping charges are rather high on small orders. My film & paper orders are usually close to or over the £1,000 mark.

Your maths isn't right I can get 10x8 Ilford film Delta 100 or HP5 from B&H with all the taxes and shipping paid, no hidden extras for £101 per 25 sheet box. The minimum shipping charges are rather high so I would order at least 4 boxes of 10x8 and far more 5x4.

If I get it sent to a friend in the US that's free postage to him and I can opt for significantly cheaper postal options, B&H use UPS or FedEX the USPS is charges are much less.

I'm about to place my largest ever order for film & paper so if I opt for Ilford HP5 10x8 film saving £360 buying from B&H on a £1000 order is significant.

Australians on another Forum bulk buy from B&H collectively as this reduces the shipping costs even further.

As mentioned earlier in the thread buying from Maco Direct is another option, it's not a company I particularly want to deal with but it has similar priced competitors on the Continent.

Ian

StoneNYC
23rd November 2014, 04:00 AM
I have a two fold theory (from an American perspective).

I suspect that Ilford, seeing a vulnerability in kodak, first kept prices steady and then did not increase prices when the cost of kodak went up. They continued to stay low and a trickle of converters began switching, as more and more kodak users switch to Ilford, the cost per shipping overseas for a pallet filled shipping container goes down, and more and more Ilford is being made. The purchases per year are increasing in the US. So the cost can be lower. In fact, Ilford just lowered their prices of a few films to match the HP5+ which was the lowest in price, this allowed them to see clearly which films were being bought in their line by popularity and not because it was cheaper than the other offerings. So when kodak increased the price of all of their films, Ilford kept HP5+ the same, and LOWERED the prices of FP4+ and Delta100 to match HP5+ which only caused more kodak users to switch.

This will eventually level out and I'm sure if kodak goes under or stops making film, Ilford prices will go up, but they will continue to stay lower than foma (which is still more expensive here). ADOX is also expensive here.

Fuji is expensive everywhere in sheet film.

The second part may simply be that overall Americans may consume more sheet film than the UK and so again, like a bulk buy purchase, the cost here in the US might just be lower.

It's all conjecture of course. But I think I might be close?

PS I'm SO glad we don't have a VAT... Sheesh I wouldn't ship or buy anything shipped if I lived in the UK that's just crazy!

paulc
23rd November 2014, 12:26 PM
PS I'm SO glad we don't have a VAT.

But you do, just by another name. 'Sales Tax' , that annoying extra 8% (depending on state) that gets added to the total every time you get to the till.

Volume and bulk container shipping costs are certainly factors in the seemingly lower price in the USA. The $/£ exchange rate also plays a part.

However.... The supply chain from Harman to the retailers is very short, and shipping costs are not excessive. It does beg the question(s): Is Ilford forcing an artificially high price on the domestic market ?

MartyNL
23rd November 2014, 01:21 PM
In my opinion, it's not fair to compare the UK and US markets. A fairer comparison would be the US and EU regarding demographics.

StoneNYC
26th November 2014, 06:55 AM
But you do, just by another name. 'Sales Tax' , that annoying extra 8% (depending on state) that gets added to the total every time you get to the till.



Volume and bulk container shipping costs are certainly factors in the seemingly lower price in the USA. The $/£ exchange rate also plays a part.



However.... The supply chain from Harman to the retailers is very short, and shipping costs are not excessive. It does beg the question(s): Is Ilford forcing an artificially high price on the domestic market ?


Yes but my sales tax is 6% and only happens when I buy something from the store, not when I buy something from another member on one of the forums or not even on eBay unless it's bought on the sand state as I live.

Isn't vat something like 20% and is on shipping no matter what it is?

I agree with the previous poster, it's probably more about demographics, that was more concise than what I said earlier.

Jakecb
26th November 2014, 08:23 PM
Regarding VAT & sales tax it is partly the way it is charged that makes it feel different. To a UK citizen buying something in the UK, VAT is almost invisible as it is built into the retail price of goods. Wheras if we go over to America it gets added at the point of sale, so it feels "extra". To an American citizen buying occasional stuff from the UK, VAT must seem onerous particularly as it is so much higher (yes, 20%) and exporters usually add it as an after sale tax. Some items are exempt from VAT like books. Lucky me :)

Richard Gould
27th November 2014, 08:19 AM
Regarding VAT & sales tax it is partly the way it is charged that makes it feel different. To a UK citizen buying something in the UK, VAT is almost invisible as it is built into the retail price of goods. Wheras if we go over to America it gets added at the point of sale, so it feels "extra". To an American citizen buying occasional stuff from the UK, VAT must seem onerous particularly as it is so much higher (yes, 20%) and exporters usually add it as an after sale tax. Some items are exempt from VAT like books. Lucky me :)

Regarding VAT, export orders to countries outside the EU are exempt from VAT, vat is removed at the point of purchase, so export orders to the USA should have the VAT removed by the retailer. I know this for a fact as Jersey is OUTSIDE the EU, we are and never have been eu members, and I have no choice but to go mail order for all my photographic supplies I get my film,paper and chemistry 20% less than you folk living in the UK, although I use the same suppliers, the down side is that some suppliers charge a higher carriage price to the Channel Islands, with one or two exceptions, Silverprint being the biggest, who charge carriage at the same rate as the rest of the UK, less 20% vat of course, It pays sometimes to be a Crown Peculier and independent, but with the USA VAT does not come into play, so even with the VAT taken off film from Ilford is still, to my mind, very expensive compared to the USA, almost double the price, which is the main reason I refuse to use it, I wouldn't mind a small price difference, but as it is made in the UK, I feel we are overpriced on it,
Richard

JOReynolds
28th November 2014, 05:33 PM
When I discussed 20% sales tax with a checkout operator in a New Orleans hat shop, his first comment was 'you let them do that?'. Then I pointed out that it goes towards our National Health Service. That may have been an error, because big pharma and the medical profession in the US were funding a vicious anti-Obamacare tv campaign at the time, using interviews with unhappy NHS patients to make their point. The checkout operator, by the way, could not afford any medical cover at all.

Argentum
28th November 2014, 06:22 PM
When I discussed 20% sales tax with a checkout operator in a New Orleans hat shop, his first comment was 'you let them do that?'. Then I pointed out that it goes towards our National Health Service. That may have been an error, because big pharma and the medical profession in the US were funding a vicious anti-Obamacare tv campaign at the time, using interviews with unhappy NHS patients to make their point. The checkout operator, by the way, could not afford any medical cover at all.

And there was me thinking that VAT was created to pay our dues to the EU and that the last rise from 17.5% to 20% was to pay for the current deficit. I think you're confusing it with National Insurance.
But its all a myth about what tax is for which service. It all goes into the same pot and gets dished out without regard for what it was supposed to be for.The multi methods of taxation are really to obfuscate how much you are really paying to the thieving govt who waste it on the likes of pointless wars and domes.

Back in mediaeval times even the local Lords of the Manor only taxed people a tenth of their income. You pay more than that now on NI alone and when you take into consideration the employers contribution its a damned site more even before actual income tax let alone VAT and duty on fuel, stamp duty etc. And now the idiots want to tax you a second time round on what you've saved and invested in a home. I think they should spend more time on creating an environment where businessses can prosper instead of taxing people into financial hardship.

Oooooops, I think I went on a rant.

Mike O'Pray
28th November 2014, 06:59 PM
Back in mediaeval times even the local Lords of the Manor only taxed people a tenth of their income.

True but the NHS was very primitive in those days. There were only 3 witches, a cauldron and a Scots patient who was Thane of Cawdor. Like all other thanes he wanted to buy Rangers but could only afford Cowdenbeath:D

A true Scottish tragedy, right enough :(

Mike

richardw
28th November 2014, 10:07 PM
And there was me thinking that VAT was created to pay our dues to the EU and that the last rise from 17.5% to 20% was to pay for the current deficit. I think you're confusing it with National Insurance.
But its all a myth about what tax is for which service. It all goes into the same pot and gets dished out without regard for what it was supposed to be for.The multi methods of taxation are really to obfuscate how much you are really paying to the thieving govt who waste it on the likes of pointless wars and domes.

Back in mediaeval times even the local Lords of the Manor only taxed people a tenth of their income. You pay more than that now on NI alone and when you take into consideration the employers contribution its a damned site more even before actual income tax let alone VAT and duty on fuel, stamp duty etc. And now the idiots want to tax you a second time round on what you've saved and invested in a home. I think they should spend more time on creating an environment where businessses can prosper instead of taxing people into financial hardship.

Oooooops, I think I went on a rant.

It was a good rant...

You are not alone.
:)
richard

paulc
29th November 2014, 12:38 AM
And now the idiots want to tax you a second time round on what you've saved and invested in a home.

When you get to the stage of needing care, either in a retirement home, or a nursing facility, you are forced to sell the house to pay for it.

One way or another, the government will get their grubby little paws on your hard earned savings.

skellum
29th November 2014, 10:09 AM
I'm a dentist, directly employed by the NHS.
I am well paid, and well taxed. On occasion I look at my monthly deductions and shiver.
However- both my parents are retired and pensioned. I have several nephews all receiving great educations in very good state schools. Several members of my family have made extensive use of the NHS, for life-saving treatment on more than one occasion. I have friends who have faced unemployment, and been helped by our benefit system.
So, I can see good things come from my taxes.
One question might be, why are some of Britains biggest companies, with huge turn-overs, paying so little?
Perhaps electing a government of Millionaires, funded by big business, all with an eye on where they go after Parliament, doesn't help. So, before we all complain too much we should remember we asked for it.
Me? I have 2 Governments I didn't vote for! One in London and one in Edinburgh, but I still believe in democracy.


If this is too political I apologise to the mods, and my feelings won't be hurt if you delete.
Cheers.

Argentum
29th November 2014, 10:36 AM
When you get to the stage of needing care, either in a retirement home, or a nursing facility, you are forced to sell the house to pay for it.

One way or another, the government will get their grubby little paws on your hard earned savings.

Funny how euthanasia is begining to become ethically acceptable:rolleyes:

Go and watch the film "Soylent Green" if you would like a glimpse of the future. :D

"Many a true word spoken in jest", as they say.

Pete Bedell
29th November 2014, 05:57 PM
The best price for 10x8 I have seen recently is £99 for Foma from Mr Cad in the UK, box of 50 sheets 100 ASA. Sounds good at 2 quid a go.
Personally I'm pushing the boundaries on paper negatives which I find good fun to get right and much cheaper. I would do the film at that price if I had a 10x8 enlarger. I think doing contacts at that size a waste of the format. The downside of paper negs is that one has to go digital and scan to make bigger prints.

StoneNYC
1st December 2014, 06:21 AM
Thank you for explaining the VAT to me.

It's kind of ironic, here in the US, ilford is so cheap, but Kodak is double the price of Ilford in sheet form.

I think I would rather buy 4x5 and 8x10 Tmax400 than HP5+ but can't afford it.

There must be a reason that the countries that are closer to the manufacture actually have to spend more for the film, there must be some kind of underlying reason.

Argentum
1st December 2014, 11:54 AM
When I studied A level economics a very long time ago taxation was part of the course.
Studies have shown that at a certain threshold of taxation (which is around 50%) there is a very siginifcant increase in the amount of people who start trying to avoid paying it. I don't know what that threshold is today but I suspect is probably between 30% and 50%.
That is why all government taxation systems are so contrived. They ARE DELIBERATELY designed to obfuscate the true amount of tax being paid and to make it difficult to work out exactly what percentage of your income is going to the government. This is fact and not fiction.
If you actually sat down and worked out the amount of tax that actually goes to government for every pound earnt and spent you would be horrified.

Peltigera
1st December 2014, 12:24 PM
From the Daily telegraph: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/10760268/Traditional-families-shouldering-heavier-tax-burden-than-global-average.html)

British families where both parents work face an overall tax rate well below the international average: their tax burden is 23.5 per cent, compared to 28.3 per cent across the OECD.

(tax burden means income tax, VAT, and various excise duties we pay added together)

big paul
1st December 2014, 01:18 PM
two things in life are guaranteed one you pay tax and two you will die and even in death they will be after you for the money .....i have tried to work out what its all about ,a roll of film is made halfway around the world goes in a lorry on to a ship in to a lorry again to a shop and it just cost £1.00 pound a roll ,i buy 4 pints of milk and it only cost me a £1.00 pound how do the dairy farmers make a profit ,,,,,i will never work this world out ......



www.essexcockney.com

Argentum
1st December 2014, 02:25 PM
From the Daily telegraph: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/10760268/Traditional-families-shouldering-heavier-tax-burden-than-global-average.html)

British families where both parents work face an overall tax rate well below the international average: their tax burden is 23.5 per cent, compared to 28.3 per cent across the OECD.

(tax burden means income tax, VAT, and various excise duties we pay added together)


Meaningless figures. None of it takes any account of relative prices, income and therfore residual income. Also Emplyers NI which is an obfuscated income tax. i.e. The real level of taxation.

Peltigera
1st December 2014, 02:46 PM
Argentum, I was responding to your "the amount of tax that actually goes to government for every pound earnt and spent" for which the figures I gave are meaningful.