Drying ? marks with colour processing

[petemcarthur]

I'm a bit stumped with this one, I have no problems processing B/W always dries without a mark. Our water is very soft.

Colour or XP2 is another matter, I'm always left with marks, never on the emulsion side. At first glance they look like drying marks that you see in hard water areas but they are not. The first thing is they take a long time to dry and when they are dry they leave a greasy smear which leads me to suspect it is more that water involved.

Using the Rollei Digibase kit and apart from the marks the negs seem fine.

Any ideas?
Thanks
Pete

[Mike O'Pray]

Hopefully someone will come up with an idea but it worries me as well now I hear of your problem. Previously I have never experienced a problem and I live in a hard water area. However I have never used the Digibase kit up to now but did purchase such a kit for future C41 processing.

Mike

[marty]

Hi there.
I had the same problem in the past, the cause might though be unrelated since we do have hard water here. I solved the problem adding a few drops of wetting agent to the stabilizer. I used three different brands of C-41 kits, Rollei among them. I can't say if the problem was peculiar to the Rollei kit. Hearing about your problem now I have a doubt if the problem was really the hard water, since I believe the stabilizer contains some kind of wetting agent on its own. However it is of no concern since the added wetting agent prevents somewhat the marks to appear.
I remember at the time I purchased a cleaner product that seems to contain isopropyl alcohol which got rid of the marks. It was a painful job, though, since I had to apply the cleaner and rub with a microfiber cloth several times in a row to make the stains to disappear. The real problem was in that the film scratched so easily...

Cheers, M.

[petemcarthur]

I remember at the time I purchased a cleaner product that seems to contain isopropyl alcohol which got rid of the marks. It was a painful job, though, since I had to apply the cleaner and rub with a microfiber cloth several times in a row to make the stains to disappear. The real problem was in that the film scratched so easily...

Cheers, M.

That's what I've been doing, isopropyl removes the marks but it is tedious with the ever present danger of scratches. The stabilizer in the Digibase kit seems to be full of detergent, very foamy but it might be worth a few drops of wetting agent.

[andresp]

I've given up on the modern stabilisers and mix my own now from formalin, wetting agent and demineralised water.

I had a feeling that re-using the kit stabiliser makes the problem much worse and formalin is cheap enough to use it for one-shot solution.

I'm aware of the health claims but I don't sniff from the bottle when mixing it and final solution is so diluted I can barely smell formaldehyde in it.

[JOReynolds]

Is the Digibase stabilizer supplied as a powder or a liquid? another member mentioned that it is frothy, implying that it already contains a surfactant.

[petemcarthur]

Is the Digibase stabilizer supplied as a powder or a liquid? another member mentioned that it is frothy, implying that it already contains a surfactant.

It is a liquid and looks and feels like soapy water

[B&W Neil]

The stabiliser may be more active / efficient when coupled to the soft water used in the process - especially if a wetting agent is incorporated. I would be tempted to try diluting it by about 30% with distilled or deionised water.

Neil.

[numnutz]

Try diluting the last bath (I assume that it is stabiliser) with more water preferably distilled. Add water until the problem stops be sure not to dilute more than 50%. I had this problem many years ago with Kodak C41 dip and dunk and that was the immediate solution. However it seemed to resolve itself fairly quickly.

nn :)

[John King]

After the stabiliser has been used i re wash the film and then give the film 30 seconds rinse in Kodak wetting agent using the JOBO rotary processor. I never get drying marks and I live in an area where the water isn't so soft.

[petemcarthur]

Well I tried washing a film after the stabilizer with Ilfotol and the results are the same if not worse. I've ordered some distilled water and that will be my last try, getting a bit disheartened with the C41 malarkey. What I find hard to understand is absolutely no problems with BW. Is it a washing issue.

[marty]

Hey Pete.
I forgot to mention I use to dilute the stabilizer (or the wetting agent for B&W) with demineralized water. I'm not sure it is a good idea washing again the film after the stabilizer as I'm under the impression it would defeat its action and for this reason I add the wetting agent to the stabilizer itself.

Cheers, M.

[petemcarthur]

Hi Marty,
In my present frame of mind I'd chuck the film in the washing machine if it got rid of the marks:) I've even been tempted to use a squeegee but that is a step too far.

I've calmed myself down by developing a roll of Delta 100, dried perfectly, no marks.

I have to admit the any colour work is usually dogital :shock: but I wanted to try XP2, regretting that decision now:slap:

[DavidH]

Very puzzling - I have been using the digibase kit for a while now and find it gives the cleanest negatives possible. I live in a hard water area.
Might I suggest you leave out the stabiliser next time (it's desirable but not essential) and see if the fault recurs.

[marty]

I do squeegee all of my films passing carefully them between my forefinger and middle finger. I wash and dry carefully my hands and then I wet my left forefinger and middle finger in demineralized water and proceed to squeegee dragging the film with my right hand, holding it by the leader. So far I managed not to scratch any film, in this phase at least... The film is then ready for drying. Sometimes there are still faint traces of drying marks (no more than a couple of spots) but they are very easy to remove breathing on the film and gently rubbing with microfiber cloth.

Cheers, M.

[Mike O'Pray]

Like Marty I now draw my middle fingers down the film a couple of times as I do with B&W. I can't say I noticed a difference in drying time or end result with C41 and B&W films

I don't think we have asked you how your dry the films. How do you do this?I wonder if this might be key. In my case I have a drying cabinet with a fan blower on top which blows ambient air only over the films to the extent of making it sway gently within the cabinet. Works quite quickly

If all else fails then I'd be tempted to try a film squeegee. Yes I know that this can introduce what is a potential "scratch machine" and if it isn't required why risk it but in your case it may be required

The key to squeegees is to ensure that the rubbers are free of grit, haven't hardened with age and are wetted in advance of use.

In all the time I used a squeegee I never experienced any scratches but simply stopped because it was unnecessary and was potentially riskier than my fingers without precautions

Don't give up just yet.

Mike

[petemcarthur]

Mike,
I dry my films in the bathroom, hung from a shower rail, this I suppose may be a bit chilly now but in a house with a dog and two children it's the most dust free.

[Mike O'Pray]

Here's possibly "hot air" but it may be what you need :D The drying effect of "wind" is well known especially if this is air in a room that's at least 20C

My Durst dryer takes up little space( about 12 inches square and about 6 feet long) and can be set up in any room with a socket.

It may be worth considering but I admit that I cannot explain why the problem only arises with C41 film.

If your bathroom is relatively dust free I wonder if it might be worth trying a hair dryer on a low or even no heat setting to see if this makes a difference. If it does then it suggests that a fan assisted drying cabinet might be the answer

Mike

[JOReynolds]

I used to design processing machines for a living. I found that problems of drying marks were caused by:
- moisture trapped in the top clips
- froth running down the film
- applying warm air too soon
If processing in a Jobo or similar, don't put stabilizer into the drum: it will create froth, a major cause of drying marks. It also ensures that the drum is clean.
Most stabilizer formulations have been replaced by a 'final rinse' that does not contain formalin. This was formerly used to toughen the gelatine - modern C41-compatible emulsions are presumably already robust enough. However, proprietary final rinse may contain a fungicide in place of formalin to preserve the processed image. Although the process timing may specify a time for the final rinse, lengthy immersion is not necessary and a brief dip is sufficient.
Put the final rinse into a bowl with a smooth round bottom that only touches the edge of the film (try a pudding basin). Remove froth with a spoon. Arrange the top clips, dry, onto the cord or rod that supports them and attach the bottom clip to the film. Use it to draw the film out of the spiral. Do not squeegee or touch the image area. Holding both ends, form the film into a loop, emulsion side in, draw the entire film through the final rinse, just once, and hang the film from the dry top clip. Before applying gentle warmth, wait at least ten minutes to allow most of the surface liquid to drain off.

[petemcarthur]

Well I must be a total incompetent, mixed up new stabiliser using distiller water, gentle squeegee, gentle dry with hair dryer. Guess what? Lots of greasy spots. I guess C41 and I are never going to get on. The only thing left to do would be new chemistry but this is starting to become expensive.

[Mike O'Pray]

There has to be something simple here that is connected to your process that explains the problem but I am stumped as to what it might be.

If it was an intrinsic problem with C41 then I am sure we'd have heard of a few and probably many disgruntled users.

Somehow I don't think it can be the chemicals used in the processing since if I have understood you, Pete, the film looks fine after processing but goes awry after stabilising

Have you tried cutting out the stabiliser to see what difference that makes?

Mike - AKA flummoxed from Daventry

[JOReynolds]

Try omitting the hair dryer - at least until the film is dry.

[JOReynolds]

I just found this on Wikipedia:
E6
Current Ektachrome process used for all major color reversal films and formats, first released in 1977. The conditioner, bleach and stabilizer baths were modified in the mid-1990s to remove the formaldehyde from the stabilizer: This change was indicated by changing the names of the conditioner step to pre-bleach step, and the stabilizer step to the final rinse step
I couldn't find any reference to the means by which the original Kodak C41 process achieves good longevity.

[Mike O'Pray]

I wonder what if anything the OP did to solve the problem? He hasn't visited the site since Dec 2013 so we may never hear.

My best guess is that he gave up on C41, judging by his last post but it's always nice to get closure whatever that might be

Mike