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alanrhilton
19th March 2014, 09:58 AM
Hi
I am using this for the first time and am getting marks on the film I didn't used to get using Tetinal . Has anyone had the same experience? What is the best c41 kit to use ?.I'm thinking Fuji Hunt but it is on the big size for my needs.
Alan

JOReynolds
20th March 2014, 10:48 AM
Tell us more about the marks. Are you processing 35mm (no gelatine on the back) or 120? Do the marks show on the negatives by reflection? Or only when printed (by transmission)? How do you dry the film? Unlike black-and-white, the C41 process is standardised and the only common variation from the original Kodak specification combines the bleach and fix steps. It's much more difficult to remove silver from bleach-fix ('blix'), so commercial processors (obliged to limit pollution) use a separate bleach and fix. Amateurs find the combined blix much more convenient. But it oxidises in storage and, worst case, precipitates sulphur, which is messy and can cause drying marks.

Mike O'Pray
20th March 2014, 02:46 PM
My commiserations. It is always annoying and disconcerting when this happens with a new kit but at the risk of appearing to be an apologist for Firstcall I'd be amazed if there is anything in its kit that intrinsically and adversely affects the processing.

I'd nearly be prepared to sell Bruce into mouse slavery( see the Cyborg thread:D) if Firstcall doesn't get its kit made for it by one of the well-known C41 kit makers so I see no reason why it shouldn't be fine.

Like JOReynolds I'd think you may need conduct an investigation along the line suggested.

Let us know what your thoughts/findings are

Mike

JOReynolds
20th March 2014, 04:50 PM
Fuji Hunt is a highly-respected brand and supplies kits of all sizes. Their largest packs concentrates in barrels of 60 or 210 litres, intended to be compounded in Rockwell Hitec mixers. These are used in large photofinisher labs, where typical Agfa and Kodak printer exposure times are in the order of 200 millisec and the continuous paper processors operate at more than 12 metres per minute

CambsIan
20th March 2014, 07:20 PM
I have no idea if this is a clue, or if it is just a name, but I see that they call it Digibase C41. Isn't that the name of Rollei C41?

Ian

KevinAllan
20th March 2014, 09:28 PM
MacoDirect.de sells the same kit with the label "Digibase C41". Am 99.99% that this is the Rollei Digibase C41 kit, but without the stabiliser.

I have used the Rollei Digibase kit, got drying marks sometimes, sometimes very good results, other times not so good, but I tend to blame my own lack of expertise rather than the chemicals.

JOReynolds
20th March 2014, 10:00 PM
If the kit omits the stabiliser or final rinse that incorporates the essential wetting agent, you will get drying marks, just as alanrhilton describes. A few drops of dishwasher rinse aid in a cup of water is all it needs. By the way, Kevin, nice pics on your site.

alanrhilton
21st March 2014, 10:41 AM
Thanks for the feedback .The marks are a layer on the surface of the film It rubs off with a cotton cloth but its difficult to remove and results in more dust on the film .I am using some Tetinal stabiliser I had lying about from an old kit .It was from an unopened bottle so it should be OK .Its clear with no residues .I am keeping the solutions in the fridge between use and I am not getting any solids precipitating .All the solutions are clear. I am also using some Jessops indicated stop bath .I have the Nova hot water bath to control temperature and am working at 38 degrees centigrade
Alan

Mike O'Pray
21st March 2014, 10:58 AM
Alan it sounds like the Kit is OK but it's the washing that may be the problem or more specifically it's the drying marks which may be a washing residue.

My understanding is that the stabiliser performs two functions: 1. acts like a wetting agent as for B&W film and 2. prevents microbes from eating the emulsion away over the ensuing years.

So simply B&W wetting agent such as Fotoflo etc might work for the marks but not for the microbes.

Mike

JOReynolds
21st March 2014, 11:32 AM
I've not heard of storing chemicals in the fridge. It will, no doubt, slow the rate of oxidation, but the convention is to exclude air as far as possible with a floating lid, raising the liquid level with glass marbles to brim the bottle or use a non-oxidising aerosol to displace air before closing. The developer solution colour test applies to C41 in the same way as B&W - brown is bad.
Most drying marks are caused by froth and accelerated drying. Avoid touching the film surface when wet. Depending on ambient humidity, squeegeeing only shortens the drying time by a few minutes. When you put the reel into the stabiliser, avoid creating bubbles or froth. The (dry) top clip should already be in position, wherever you are going to let the film dry (moisture retained in a wet top clip will dribble down the film and leave drying marks). Use the bottom clip to unwind the film from the spool and run the film one more time through the stabiliser, so that it is evenly wetted. There should be no froth at all. Hang 35mm films side-by-side, not facing one another, so that the spray created when the bubble retained in the sprocket holes bursts does not land on adjacent films.
Let it drip dry. How ever excited you are to see your results, don't use a hair-dryer on either side until the film no longer appears milky.

JOReynolds
21st March 2014, 11:34 AM
Hi again Alan. I just spotted that you are using an indicator stop bath. Why?

alanrhilton
21st March 2014, 06:24 PM
I used the indicated stop because I had some,and the kit didn't have any. Is it unusual to use stop bath with C41? or is the indicator a possible cause of my problem?.
As for drying the film I am now using a home made on the reel dryer. On past batches I just hung the film in the bathroom the film using film clips.The dryer has resulted in less dust but the deposit on the film hasn't changed
Alan

JOReynolds
22nd March 2014, 12:20 AM
In B&W processing the acidity of the stop bath or acid fix arrests development. The C41 bleach or bleachfix inhibits CD3 activity without requiring an acid environment. Acid stop bath, carried into the bleachfix, reduces its pH and prevents proper coupling of the cyan dye layer (leuco cyan), which shows up as crossed curves (negatives difficult to print). Leuco cyan occurs more frequently in combined bleachfix. This can be corrected by re-bleaching the film in fresh bleach (not bleachfix) and then fixing again in a separate fix.
In my experience drying film on the reel is fraught with problems and is best avoided unless excess moisture is removed by spinning the reel at high speed and then gently reducing the airflow humidity. I designed several systems in the 1990s for the Smartlab project but they were complicated and expensive to manufacture and were abandoned because of drying marks, just as you describe. Also, gelatine tended to stick to the reel and fragments would float off into the developer when the reel was next used.
Use the drying procedure I described above. A bathroom is not a bad place to dry film. Although towels release lint, fluff tends to fall and there is little airflow to distribute it.

alanrhilton
22nd March 2014, 08:08 AM
Hi
What is the ideal procedure for processing C41? do you do anything between developer and bleach? .I can modify my dryer to a hanging type quite easily its made of a 4" plastic drain T piece with stop ends fitted in all three outlets the top and bottom ones are drilled with a few holes the bottom has a dust filter fitted .The leg of the T has an incandescent 25 watt light bulb fitted to produce gentle heat, which produces a convection current up the dryer .I can buy a length of drain pipe and make it a hanging dryer instead .
Alan

JOReynolds
22nd March 2014, 09:29 AM
Hi again Alan
1. no stop bath required for (brown, ferric EDTA) bleach. Go straight from develop to bleach(fix)
2. stop bath risks causing leuco cyan, which will degrade image quality
3. bleach and bleachfix are expensive and can be re-used again and again, but carried-in stop bath will soon destroy them, so look after them
4. a hanging dryer works best for home processing
5. allow the surfactant in the stabiliser do its job and let the film drip dry for a while
6. let the milky appearance of the film fade before applying heat
7. the drying system you describe introduces heat from the bottom, which is where the moisture collects and where the drying marks will originate. If you want to speed things up (risky) the warmth should be delayed for a while and the airflow should follow the liquid flow, top-down.
I used to design processors for a living

JOReynolds
22nd March 2014, 02:40 PM
...arrests CD3 activity without requiring an acid environment
Correction - I should have said CD4. CD3 is used in RA4 paper processing

alanrhilton
23rd March 2014, 05:51 PM
Hi JO
Thanks for the information .You don't even need a wash between baths ?
How do you do the final washing?
Alan

JOReynolds
23rd March 2014, 10:06 PM
No, Alan. Drain the developer for about 15sec, then straight into the bleach(fix) and agitate for 10...15sec. Don't extend the bleach(fix) step beyond 6min. The wash step is, in principle, no different to B&W but the gelatine is fairly delicate at this stage, so make sure that there is no change in temperature between bleach(fix) and wash. If you don't have temperature-controlled running water, fill a bucket of water with hot and cold water adjusted to 38° and give four or five discard-refill cycles, with gentle agitation, each of about one minute. This is called 'successive dilution' and, some say, is more effective than running water.
The C41 process was cleverly designed to be as simple as possible and achieves superb results with a straightforward procedure. Any deviation from Kodak's original specification risks degrading the result.

CambsIan
10th February 2015, 08:51 PM
Just read this old thread. Have to say wish I had read it earlier, but hey ho that's life.

Hi Alan,

How did you get on with this kit ?

Did you get over the no stabiliser problem ?

Got any tips ?

P.S. Meant to say that I have just got this kit at home

ashfaque
11th February 2015, 06:42 AM
Hi Everyone,

I don't know if it helps, I read on an APUG thread (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/76545-rollei-digibase-c-41-a.html) that the Digibase C41 Kit's instruction is missing two washing steps (& possibly something else).

According to reply 58, 59 (& others), there should be a wash between bleaching and fixing and then another wash after fixing. A disclaimer: please read the whole thread as I haven't done C41 myself.

Bests,

Ashfaque

Mike O'Pray
11th February 2015, 07:43 PM
ashfaque, I think you have interpreted the APUG instructions exactly as stated. I made a note of the full instructions a while ago and it says exactly as you have stated

All I would add and this contradicts JoReynolds' point is that the instructions as set out on APUG has a Stop stage after developer and before bleach.

I have the kit but have yet to try it but as I recall it an APUGer called PE(Ron Mowrey AKA Photo Engineer) who worked for Kodak's C41 division for many years has never mentioned any detrimental effect of using a stop bath

I'd need to check the APUG thread again and its about 30 pages long so not a 5 minute job but unless I have remembered wrongly we have a difference of opinion on the use or otherwise of Stop in the C41 process

Mike

CambsIan
11th February 2015, 08:24 PM
Hi ashfaque, hi Mike,

I've just spent ages reading the APUG thread and have to say that I'm as confused now as I was before I started.

As far as I can see, the wash / not wash, stabilise / not stabilise camps are pretty much equally divided.

Having now had a close look at the instructions supplied in the kit, they recommend a wash between developer and bleach, and also a wash between bleach and fixing, but no mention of a stop.

The instructions also mention a compard Rapidry, and if this is used a stabiliser is not required, think that might need a bit more research.

Ian

JOReynolds
11th February 2015, 09:30 PM
If you take your colour negative film to a minilab there will be no stop bath. There will probably be no flowing wash, just a super-stabiliser before drying.

Mike O'Pray
12th February 2015, 12:40 AM
The instructions also mention a compard Rapidry, and if this is used a stabiliser is not required, think that might need a bit more research.

Ian

What's a compard Rapidry?

Thanks

Mike

CambsIan
12th February 2015, 05:52 PM
Hi Mike,

Thats what I wondered, so asked Mr Google and I think it is this

http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/products/3327/rollei-rapidry-eco-500ml

It's a solution that you dunk your film in after the final wash and the film dries in 5 min, makes then antistatic and hardens them.

What do you reckon ?

Ian

Mike O'Pray
12th February 2015, 08:00 PM
I am not sure it says this Rapidry is a subsitute for stabiliser but you are right it does say not to use if a stabiliser has been used. A C41 stabiliser would seem to be a must if you are to be sure of avoiding an attack by microbes that can eat away at the dyes at some time in the future.

I wonder what this stuff( Rapidry) actually does that is worthwhile? I suppose it depends on how good its anti-static properties are. Good enough not to bother with dusting the neg before enlarging?

I certainly would not use this in place of a C41 stabiliser. I don't think I'll be buying it any time soon

Mike

ashfaque
13th February 2015, 09:49 AM
Hi Ian,

If possible, could you please ask your Digibase C-41 kit and related questions on that APUG thread? Since I haven't done C-41 yet, I think it will benefit people like me who are thinking of starting with the Digibase kit. IIRC, according to some APUG members, the kit seems to develop lot more rolls of films than the suggested number on the spec sheet (, albeit with the possibility of your last roll being slightly bad). So it could potentially reduce the costs if C-41 developing even further. The kit, whichever size you pick, is already cheaper than Tetenal. Only if there were some clear and easy set of updated instructions.

Bests,

Ashfaque

CambsIan
14th February 2015, 12:15 PM
Hi Ashfaque,

Sorry, but I'm not a member of APUG, so not able to post on there.

Ian

CambsIan
16th February 2015, 08:22 AM
Well. I've only gone and done it.

Ran the first test film through the Jobo with the FirstCall pre diluted kit last night.

Ran it through at the 30C timings, all went well(ish) a few operator errors but managed to get some negs out at the end.

Considering I had never used a rotary processor or the FirstCall kit before think the negs are pretty good.

These are a few scan of the negs ( sorry but my scanner automatically turns negs into positives )

I'm quite happy. Opinions welcome

[ Mods if this is against the rules please remove ]

Ian