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-   -   Blank skies - would filters help? (http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=11324)

EdmundH 27th December 2016 09:55 PM

Blank skies - would filters help?
 
My one disappointment so far with B&W is the number of blank skies I get. Although I don't produce many landscapes in the usual sense, many of my photographs do include sky. Somehow there rarely seem to be any individual clouds around when I take my camera out, just cloudless blue, or overall cloud cover. Basing the exposure on ground based subjects frequently leaves the sky bright and featureless. Would a yellow filter help? - I recall reading somewhere that it's quite usual to always have a yellow filter fitted, but I don't necessarily want to increase contrast in the scene overall.

Lostlabours 27th December 2016 10:15 PM

Printing technique helps far more, ry flashing.

Ian

Mike O'Pray 27th December 2016 10:35 PM

I take it, Edmund, that in the skies to which you refer there were white clouds against a blue sky i.e. it wasn't a uniform white/grey such as we get on most days at this time of year?

If it was white clouds in a blue sky then a filter such as a yellow can and will bring out the clouds by darkening the blue giving the sky a kind of English summer's "gentle" afternoon appearance.

Even more contrast can be achieved with orange and red. Some films it is said are better than others. TMax is said to give a yellow filter look withou yellow but but such examples often come from U.S. users where I suspect a lot live in clear high altitude areas and considerably further South than we in the U.K. or the rest of N. Europe find ourselves.

I have seen skies in such pics taken with a light yellow filter that I couldn't manage with red plus a polaroid in the U.K.

In my opinion any shot landscape shot on a sunny day with a reasonable amount of sky will benefit from at least a yellow filter

Mike

vincent 27th December 2016 10:38 PM

A yellow filter can help but I find that the orange filter gives a better result. Red can be too strong and should only be used for creating a strong contrast. While traveling in Spain I found the orange to be too strong for my likening and now use a yellow filter when photographing there.

Martin Aislabie 27th December 2016 10:48 PM

Yellow, Orange or Red filters - in increasing effect, make clear blue sky darker.

However, they do nothing for cloud - which stays almost featureless white.

The filters also have much more limited influence on the watery blue skies we typically get in the UK, when the sun does shine.

If you have a sky which is uniform cloud cover - which happens a lot in the UK, the only way of getting any detail in the cloud is by the use of a graduated filter (2/2.5/3 stop range) - Lee or similar.

If you use a spot meter to meter a scene, you find that clouds are about 3 stops brighter than any feature on the ground - which is not unsurprising when you think about it - they are translucent objects backlit by the sun.

Ian is right, flashing and burning at the printing stage, can help render detail in the clouds but it takes practice to produce something that looks realistic/believable.

In addition to the standard yellow/orange/red filters to darken a blue sky you can also use a yellow/green filter, a green filter and a polariser - or combinations of the polariser plus one of the other coloured filters.

If you look at the Hoya web site you will see the effect on sky of the various colour filters, although in my experience , the effect is much less dramatic in the UK.

In dryer countries - where there is much less water vapour in the atmosphere, the effects or filters start to approach the effects shown on the Hoya web site.

I have spent a great deal of time and effort trying to refine my use of filters to get the effect on the sky and clouds I am seeking and are still learning.

The best way to learn is to experiment with the various colour filters - I would say its better to buy one and use it until you are familiar with its effects before adding a new one to your repertoire - frequent swapping will only confuse you - or at least it did me.

Have fun

Martin

Lostlabours 27th December 2016 11:01 PM

I'd been printing for years until a workshop at Peter Goldfield's in the Quantocks and Peteer Cattrell at that point Fay Godwins printer.

Watching him use flashing was all I needed - a real eye opener. se a lot but it's a very important darkroom tool

It's not something I use a lot but it;s a very important darkroom tool.

Ian

big paul 27th December 2016 11:24 PM

I find that fomapan film brings out the clouds ,there's a song here ..




www.essexcockney.com

EdmundH 27th December 2016 11:39 PM

The type of sky I'm having most trouble with is overcast but certainly not featureless, often with turbulent grey cloud masses. In many cases there is some detail in the negative, but a lot of additional exposure is needed to bring it out. I do have a set of Cokin ND grads, but reluctant to use them as some of my favourite subjects are tall structures, which would be adversely affected by the darkening effect. Pre-flashing sounds interesting, what would be a starting point here?

Richard Gould 28th December 2016 08:31 AM

Like Paul I use Fomapan, and I often do not use a filter as I find that Fomapan tends to give a Orange filter look to skys, but with uniform grey or clear blue skys then no filtering is going to give you detail in the sky, it simply is not there, if there is some detail in the sky, such as clouds in a blue sky then yes, a yellow or orange filter can help,if the is detail in a grey sky sky, such as light and dark grey, then no amount of filtering wil help, in both of the above cases then you will need to burn the skys to bring out the detail, flasing is a tool, it helps sometimes, in my experiance, another thing that I find helps is to burn the sky with a lower contrast filter,I:E make you original exposure at,say grade 2 then burn you skys at grade 1 or even lower at 1/2 will give you better skys, this form of split grade printing is something that I often do to get some detail in skys, If you have just no detail then you can often burn in the high sky to a dark grey, nearly black and burn the lower sky to a lighter shade of grey, which can make the sky interesting,
Richard

John King 28th December 2016 08:45 AM

Featureless Skyes
 
If the sky has definite varing tone try printing for the main area with multigrade filtration that gives you good detail, the using a softer grade of filtration re-expose the sky area which will reveal detail in the clouds. You will probably have to try multiple test strips to get it right.

It is a great pity we are equipped with only two arms because sometimes a 3rd arm would be useful at time when a little bit of dodging can lift the detail even more


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