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  #11  
Old 12th March 2020, 12:51 PM
SanMiguel SanMiguel is offline
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That's interesting, Terry. The thing that worried me is that the print was sitting around for a few weeks without showing any signs anything was wrong. In a few years time of course it might be different. It was only when I bleached it back the stain appeared.

I've been assuming (hoping) my prints were good for years to come!

Perhaps an example for many of us to revisit our procedures from time to time. I am usually in the darkroom twice a week and it's only natural to get a bit blasé with things, when everything 'looks' OK...

Regards,
Michael



Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
I had a stain similar to this on one of my prints the other day Micheal.

It was straight developed and fixed in a Nova slot, using RC paper. It has happened once or twice before in the past as well.

I first notice it when I start to put prints into the washer and it's usually just a small area on only one print of a batch.

I have been scratching my head but I think it is lack of print movement whilst in the fix and the print sticking to the side of a slot and i.e. not getting fixed all over. i say this as I look at them as they come out of the developer and they always look fine. Also I have never had trouble with any FB paper I've used.

I too need to keep an eye on my procedure, I think.

Terry S
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  #12  
Old 12th March 2020, 01:30 PM
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B&W Neil B&W Neil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanMiguel View Post
Thanks Neil I actually use a tray for the development - so it gets plenty of agitation. Its the next (boring) bits I just dump the print and leave it

Using a tray for development works really well for me - it means I use fresh developer each time plus I get the buzz from seeing the print appear. The only caveat is to set the timer and stick rigidly to the 2 or 3 minutes...it's too tempting to snatch the print early when it looks done, only to find out later when the lights go on that those blacks are not really black at all...

Michael

Michael,

It has to be the fix or wash then.

Neil.
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  #13  
Old 12th March 2020, 01:40 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Hi Michael
I have had this sort of problem,now and again, and maybe just the odd print in a batch, on both FB and RC paper over the years,the print looks fine out of the wash, but when you bleach it back for sepia toning you get a dark stain which doesn't tone, just stays dark, I think it is something to do with fixing,perhaps the fixer is getting near the end ofit's useful life, It has never happened with fresh fixer, and when I reduced the number of prints though the fixer the staining stopped, nothing to do with agitition, mine are all dish processed an agititated fornthe full process time, and nothing to do with developing agition, as I always follow the same routine, that is rock the dish until the image starts toappear the 3 or 4 times every 30 seconds or so,
Richard
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  #14  
Old 12th March 2020, 05:36 PM
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I tend to keep almost constant agitation in my slotty-thing at first - I might let the print rest for 10 seconds, but in general, I'm moving it side-to side and up/down quite a lot.

Also would advise testing your fixer before every session (at least once - depending on how many prints you are making). I use the time it takes to clear a piece of undeveloped film and dump it when the time increases by 50% over fresh fixer. Some people suggest twice the time, but I am following Ilford's 60s fixer recommendation so need pretty fresh strong fixer. I only use a single film-strength fixer bath/slot.

Last edited by Bob; 12th March 2020 at 05:39 PM.
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  #15  
Old 12th March 2020, 07:41 PM
SanMiguel SanMiguel is offline
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Thanks Richard that’s very helpful. Good to know I’m in good company from time to time!

I think this print was from a batch I did just before I renewed my fixer, so it could have been weak. That plus the lack of agitation most likely caused the problem

In fact hearing about everyone’s darkroom techniques is helpful...I can see small differences to my process that will help me - and of course hopefully eradicate this staining.
Michael



Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Gould View Post
Hi Michael
I have had this sort of problem,now and again, and maybe just the odd print in a batch, on both FB and RC paper over the years,the print looks fine out of the wash, but when you bleach it back for sepia toning you get a dark stain which doesn't tone, just stays dark, I think it is something to do with fixing,perhaps the fixer is getting near the end ofit's useful life, It has never happened with fresh fixer, and when I reduced the number of prints though the fixer the staining stopped, nothing to do with agitition, mine are all dish processed an agititated fornthe full process time, and nothing to do with developing agition, as I always follow the same routine, that is rock the dish until the image starts toappear the 3 or 4 times every 30 seconds or so,
Richard
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  #16  
Old 12th March 2020, 07:46 PM
SanMiguel SanMiguel is offline
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Again, Bob, that’s very helpful. Thanks.

So...am I right in thinking you test print fixer with film? I assume you need to take a little out of the nova tank to do that (?) as I think I read something somewhere about not using film fixer for prints. That’s easy enough anyway. I hadn’t thought about testing it in that way but I guess that does work in that it gives an indication of the strength of the fixer. I like it.

Michael


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob View Post
I tend to keep almost constant agitation in my slotty-thing at first - I might let the print rest for 10 seconds, but in general, I'm moving it side-to side and up/down quite a lot.

Also would advise testing your fixer before every session (at least once - depending on how many prints you are making). I use the time it takes to clear a piece of undeveloped film and dump it when the time increases by 50% over fresh fixer. Some people suggest twice the time, but I am following Ilford's 60s fixer recommendation so need pretty fresh strong fixer. I only use a single film-strength fixer bath/slot.
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  #17  
Old 12th March 2020, 10:15 PM
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You are correct that it is not a good idea to use the same batch of fixer for both film and paper. I don't do that - I keep separate batches of fixer for film and paper, but I do use my paper fixer at the same strength as for film (1+4 rather than the more usual 1+9 for paper).

This allows quicker washing of fibre paper if you wish due to the shorter time the paper spends in the fixer absorbing the fixer into its fibres. Add hypo-clear to the equation and you can wash even faster. Ilford have this method documented.

Yes, I just drain some fixer into a beaker, drop a small piece of unprocessed film in and swish it around, timing how long it takes to clear compared to the same film when I made up the fresh batch. Remove the film and dump the fixer back in the slot. The problem as I understand it is when using fixer used for paper for fixing film rather than the other way around but in any event, I can't imagine the miniscule amount of film by-products are going to affect two litres of paper fixer. I sacrifice a roll of film to this as I use mostly 120 film (you only need a few square cm of film for each test so a whole roll lasts a long time) but if you use 35mm then a small piece of the leader you cut off before loading into the developing reels will also do nicely.

There are other ways to measure the fixer effectiveness but the time it takes to clear a small piece of film is a simple one.


[Edit: this just prompted me to do a bit of reading on reusing the same fixer batch with film and paper and it seems there are good reasons in both directions not to do so unless you fix a couple of films, then use it for a few prints and then dump it - i.e. do not go anywhere remotely close to its actual full capacity. So simpler to just keep film and print fixer separate if you intend to reuse it.]

Last edited by Bob; 13th March 2020 at 11:31 PM.
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  #18  
Old 13th March 2020, 09:43 AM
SanMiguel SanMiguel is offline
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Thanks Bob that's very helpful. I shall adopt a similar strategy for testing my print fixer.

Regards,
Michael

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob View Post
You are correct that it is not a good idea to use the same batch of fixer for both film and paper. I don't do that - I keep separate batches of fixer for film and paper, but I do use my paper fixer at the same strength as for film (1+4 rather than the more usual 1+9 for paper).

This allows quicker washing of fibre paper if you wish due to the shorter time the paper spends in the fixer absorbing the fixer into its fibres. Add hypo-clear to the equation and you can wash even faster. Ilford have this method documented.

Yes, I just drain some fixer into a beaker, drop a small piece of unprocessed film in and swish it around, timing how long it takes to clear compared to the same film when I made up the fresh batch. Remove the film and dump the fixer back in the slot. The problem as I understand it is when using fixer used for paper for fixing film rather than the other way around but in any event, I can't imagine the miniscule amount of film by-products are going to affect two litres of paper fixer. I sacrifice a roll of film to this as I use mostly 120 film (you only need a few square cm of film for each test so a whole roll lasts a long time) but if you use 35mm then a small piece of the leader you cut off before loading into the developing reels will also do nicely.

There are other ways to measure the fixer effectiveness but the time it takes to clear a small piece of film is a simple one.


[Edit: this just prompted me to do a bit of reading on reusing the same fixer batch with film and paper and it seems there are good reasons in both directions not to do so unless you fix a couple of films, then use it for a few prints and then dump it - i.e. do go anywhere remotely close to its actual full capacity. So simpler to just keep film and print fixer separate if you intend to reuse it.]
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