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Old 13th January 2019, 05:10 PM
TFTMB TFTMB is offline
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Default Contrast trouble

Hi.

I have been printing in my own darkroom for a few months but have been getting stuck with a problem that I can't seem to find my way out of.

I have a roll of Ilford FP4 that I have shot at EI200, and I am very pleased with the negativs. I made a contact print on MG RCIV on a contract of 2 for 12 seconds, and the contact print is luminous, with good blacks and bright highlights, exactly what I want.

When I come to make an enlargement however I can never achieve the same level of contrast. I have tried using contrast 5, no filter and same time, split grade printing, straight printing and Ansel Adam's method of starting at 00 and increasing the contrast grade, but it always comes out muddy and lifeless.

My paper is fresh, my chemicals are fresh, safelight is good and using a colour englarger so I am dialling in my grades.

Any advice on anything else I can try would be much apreciated.

Thanks.
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Old 13th January 2019, 06:04 PM
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B&W Neil B&W Neil is offline
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It would would help to see a straight neg scan, if you could manage this ?

Neil.
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Old 13th January 2019, 06:17 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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A photo of the negative in front of a white background would help.

Ian
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Old 13th January 2019, 07:49 PM
Stocky Stocky is offline
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Contact print and enlargements on same paper and same (fresh) developer?

Is the projected image on the baseboard/easel clear and sharp looking?

Has the enlarger setup produced good prints recently?
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Old 13th January 2019, 08:11 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Welcome to FADU, TFTMB. When I read your post I had a vague feeling that I had seen something very similar on Photrio but it may just have been that there are many threads on differences in contrast between contact sheets and actual prints of the same negative.

However what is worrying is that none I have seen suggest anything like the change that occurs in your experience. Usually the query is in relation to a change which is noticeable from the C sheet to the print but not one that appears to be incapable of correction

At the risk of insulting your intelligence I take it that the print is done within a short time of the contact sheet and that the comparison is with the same "good contact print" and very inferior muddy lifeless print?

You haven't told us what your exact process is and this might be helpful to know to get to an answer as quickly as possible.

Just one suggestion which may replicate what you have done already to eliminate variables. Use the same enlarger projection and exposure time you use for the contact sheet for the print projection using the same grade. This can either be without any filters in both cases so about grade 2 or a grade 2 filter in both cases. Process both contact sheet and print immediately.

Let us see the difference in outcome. That way we eliminate exposure changes, grade changes, chemical changes, paper changes etc. In fact that should eliminate all the potential changes I can think of.

I have to say that in theory there should only be a small change at worst and as I understand the process this should be a perception change that may stem from one print(contact) being tiny and surrounded by black and the other much bigger and standing on its own with white borders.

The change in this case should still be small and I would have thought correctable to your satisfaction with maybe one grade more filtration

Are you using Ilford filters or do you use colour head filtration?

If your Ilford filters are "shot" it might explain why you cannot seemingly increase grades compared to grade 2 or if you use dichroic head filtration then it might just be ( long shot admittedly) that the filter dials are not working but I admit should not give good contact prints then useless full prints in either case.

On the surface this is a real "puzzler"

Mike
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Old 13th January 2019, 08:47 PM
alexmuir alexmuir is offline
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There will be a slight reduction in contrast between a contact print and an enlargement of the same negative. I wouldn’t expect it to be as dramatic as you have experienced, however, and I think the problem is more likely in the enlarger. I would check to see if you can achieve a range of contrast with any negative by doing a series of prints at different grades. If the results are all of low contrast, then either the enlarger bulb, or the filters could be the problem. Bulbs tend to burn more yellow with age. This makes it difficult to achieve proper contrast. Filters can fade, but this is not a very common problem with built-in colour filters. They can, however, become sticky or jammed which means that you are not actually putting the desired filtration into the light path. I would have a look at your filters first to confirm proper operation. If they’re ok, try a new bulb. If that doesn’t help, there is the possibility that the transformer/power supply isn’t giving the correct voltage. It would be unusual, but they don’t last forever. I hope you find a solution.
Alex


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Old 14th January 2019, 10:07 AM
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If you are happy that your enlarger, materials and technique are all as they should be I am beginning to think 'print-dry-down' is the problem here.

In my experience most papers require a slight reduction in exposure from that given to get them looking good when wet. It is surprising what a difference this can make to a fished print. Try reducing the exposure time (when viewed wet) in quarter stop units and see what happens.

Neil.
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Old 14th January 2019, 01:07 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Neil may have a point but key to this may be: Do you also print on RC paper as well as make the contact sheet on RC? If it is Rc throughout then certainly my experience is that on RC drydown makes little or no difference and certainly not enough to make the difference between an excellent contact print and a muddy lifeless full print

What I have noticed however is how much flatter and "greyer" is a print on say Ilford Satin which is close to matt compared to Ilford RC Gloss.

Again we get back to needing to know exactly what your process is in more detail than may seem necessary otherwise we each throw in a suggestion and need you to tell us if this is not applicable. In the long run this is a slower method of solving the problem

Mike
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:11 PM
big paul big paul is offline
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all my photography life I have used condenser enlargers but one time I bought a diffuser colour enlarger ,strait away I had trouble with it, I just could not get the prints how I wanted them ,and I was very unhappy with the results I was getting ,so I went back to condenser enlargers .I am not saying one is better than the other ,all I am saying is its just personal preference .also I develop my film so I get more contrast in the neg ,so when printing on VC paper I very rarely use graded filters ,to get the negative I want I use a jobo for me the constant rotation give me a bit more contrast also I use a little bit more developer than recommended plus years of experience all adds up to making me happy with my negatives ...all above is my opinion other people have a different opinion nobody is right or wrong its what suits you ,just don't give up you will get there in the end ,most of it is experience and you cannot get that over night so keep at it..

www.essexcockney.com
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Old 18th January 2019, 04:27 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big paul View Post
all my photography life I have used condenser enlargers but one time I bought a diffuser colour enlarger ,strait away I had trouble with it, I just could not get the prints how I wanted them ,and I was very unhappy with the results I was getting ,so I went back to condenser enlargers .I am not saying one is better than the other ,all I am saying is its just personal preference .also I develop my film so I get more contrast in the neg ,so when printing on VC paper I very rarely use graded filters ,to get the negative I want I use a jobo for me the constant rotation give me a bit more contrast also I use a little bit more developer than recommended plus years of experience all adds up to making me happy with my negatives ...all above is my opinion other people have a different opinion nobody is right or wrong its what suits you ,just don't give up you will get there in the end ,most of it is experience and you cannot get that over night so keep at it..

www.essexcockney.com
I agree about condenser enlargers. I did a comparison once between condenser and diffusion heads on my Beseler 23CII, and I much preferred the more lively and dynamic look of the condenser. I can see how the results of a contact print would not translate directly to that of an enlargement with a diffusion head. You will likely need to develop your films to higher contrast to achieve that same spark in the final prints using the diffusion head. Ilford's tech docs from the '80s provided two development times for their films -- one for condenser, and another for diffusion. If you like, I can pull one from my archive and have a look for you. Just let me know your preferred film-developer combo and I'll see if I can find it.
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