Support our Sponsors, they keep FADU free:   AG Photographic   Keyphoto   The Imaging Warehouse   Process Supplies   RH Designs   RK Photo   Second-hand Darkroom Supplies   Silverprint Ltd

Notices

Go Back   Film and Darkroom User > Colour Work > Colour film

  ***   Click here for the FADU 2015/2014 Yearbooks   ***

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 28th June 2020, 09:44 PM
alexmuir alexmuir is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Glasgow, Scotland.
Posts: 2,190
Default

Hi John. The times are from the Bellini instructions. 3:15 Dev, 0:45 bleach, 3:00 fix. Maybe bleach and fix are more concentrated? I know another member here has used this kit with no problem, presumably at the recommended times. Im thinking now that water quality may be the issue, although ours is not noticeably hard. I made up all solutions using a water filter. Im hoping to try another film soon and will report back.
Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 28th June 2020, 11:33 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Daventry, Northants
Posts: 7,523
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmuir View Post
Hi John. The times are from the Bellini instructions. 3:15 Dev, 0:45 bleach, 3:00 fix. Maybe bleach and fix are more concentrated? I know another member here has used this kit with no problem, presumably at the recommended times. Im thinking now that water quality may be the issue, although ours is not noticeably hard. I made up all solutions using a water filter. Im hoping to try another film soon and will report back.
Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I read your original post as meaning 3mins 15 sec for developer which is standard then 3 mins 45 secs for bleach and 3 mins for fixer. I realised that I had assumed that for the bleach step you has simply used a form of abbreviation for the bleach and I inferred that it was 3 mins 45 secs

It now seems that the bleach step is only 45 secs which is very short but this may be what Bellini intends and there is something different about Bellini bleach.

As far as I am aware all water in Scotland is very soft by " English water standards so I doubt if hardness come into it but even in soft water some form of precipitate can get into a public water supply temporarily.

As far as a squeegee is concerned I bow to John's experience with colour film and here I should declare that it is several years since I did colour but as it was several years ago I suspect I may still have been using a squeegee then without any harm coming to the film but, yes, a squeegee would be my last resort if the normal time in the stabiliser and tow fingers doesn't remove the white spots.

I'll be interested to hear how you get on with your second film

Mike

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 29th June 2020, 12:36 PM
alexmuir alexmuir is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Glasgow, Scotland.
Posts: 2,190
Default

Thanks to everyone for your advice. I will look at the bleach to see if it has any precipitate. I should perhaps have explained that the films looked fine when removed from the stabiliser and hung up to dry. It was after they had dried that the white spots appeared. It was as if the liquid on the film surface had gathered towards the centre as it ran downwards, leaving behind whatever particle residue caused the spots. They were of a chalk like appearance.
Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 29th June 2020, 01:34 PM
Tom Kershaw Tom Kershaw is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 512
Default

I usually have no issues with C-41 development but did just recently when processing some Ektar 4x5 sheets (chalk like deposits). I'm using Kodak Flexicolor developer, Champion bleach, Kodak fixer, and Kodak final rinse.

From memory the Jobo rotary timings are:

1 minute pre-soak
3min 15sec develop
6 min bleach
1 min wash
6 min fix
wash
final rinse - not in the Jobo...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 29th June 2020, 03:21 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Daventry, Northants
Posts: 7,523
Default

What follows is pure speculation but is rightly or wrongly based on some statements by Bellini and the likes of Nik and Trick, one of the main sellers of this kit.

One of the kit's selling points is its simplicity and speed of processing. To that end the bleach comes in a ready-for-use form - no dilution needed so it may be that what Bellini gives you is more or less the exact amount correctly diluted to last for 14-16 films only and also correctly diluted to make it possible to bleach effectively in only 45 secs.

The developer comes as one stock solution and the further dilutions are also simple(1+10) . Again what Bellini gives may have been carefully worked out to do 14-16 films. Fixer is equally simple as is the combined wash with stabiliser. The kits for what I assume to be marketing purposes are advertised as not needing a water wash but this is a kind of literary sleight of hand. There is no need for a separate water wash as the wash and stabiliser is combined but this has the attraction of the word waterless which in the context in which it is used is not a lie and again it saves time albeit a very small amount of time

The whole instructions unless they have been expanded on since I first saw mention of the Bellini kit in 2018 are a bit sparse to say the least but again the simpler they are the less confusion arises or so Bellini appears to think

From what I have read and there are pages and pages about it in a very long thread on Photrio the simplicity or seeming simplicity is geared towards newcomers to C41.

However it does beg a few questions for which I can find no answer

1. I presume that each 1L diluted developer for use will do for 4 x 135 film on a use-and-dump basis given that most tanks normally require at least 250ml per tank on inversion agitation but this can't be right as that is 4 films per 1L of working solution and as it only takes 100ml of concentrate and there are 10 x100ml concentrate in 1L of concentrate so that is 40 135 films and not 12 -16, isn't it?

Even in Paterson tanks which I think are 300ml for 135 and 600ml for 120 it works out at 30 x 135 and 16 x 120 films

So is Bellini's instructions of 12-16 geared to the worst case scenario of all films being 120 and all tanks requiring 600ml? This may be the case but I cannot find any detail on this at all

2. Can the bleach be used for longer than 45 secs? I think the answer here has to be Yes and it may be sensible to do so as I don't think that bleach can be overdone. It may not be necessary but I'd be tempted to do so on a "just in case" basis. The only possible drawback here is if you can exhaust the Bellini bleach more quickly by this and thus exhaust the bleach too much for the later films

Again I had expected this 45 secs bleach to have drawn more attention in the very long Photrio thread but it seemed to have been overlooked. However at least one user of the Bellini kit does extend the time and I think if this had an adverse effect on the bleach he might have seen this and mentioned it but he hasn't

The real problem with this kit in terms of getting to know more about it is that not enough people on the only other forum that has enough members, namely Photrio seem to use it.

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 29th June 2020, 03:49 PM
alexmuir alexmuir is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Glasgow, Scotland.
Posts: 2,190
Default

Hi Mike. Perhaps I can explain better how the kit is used. The developer is a concentrate, to which you add water to make one litre. You use this for 16 films, then discard. The same way you can use ID11 or Microphen stock solutions. There are guidelines for extending the development time for successive films. 1-4 is 315, 5-8 330, 9-12 345, 13-16 4.
Bleach is one litre ready to use, and is re-used throughout at 45.
Fixer is supplied as 500ml, and made up to one litre. Time is 3 throughout.
The chemicals are to be discarded after all 16 films.
The stabiliser is supplied as 100ml to make up 10 litres. The instructions suggest you make 5 litres and use/re-use for 16 films. They dont say you need 5 litres, just use what is necessary.
From what has been said, it seems that this process is different from some of the other home processing kits.
Alex.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 29th June 2020, 04:27 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Daventry, Northants
Posts: 7,523
Default

Thanks Alex Yes on re-reading the part abut the concentrate I now realise it is only 100ml so it makes up 1L working solution and this is poured back each time you use it. You will lose a little of the working solution each time so I presume that by film 16 quite a bit of air will be at the top of the 1L container. How do you keep out the air - some form of heavier than air gas such as Protectan? I suppose that as it is 1 litre of working solution I litre Soda bottles that can be squeezed a little might also do the trick In your case what have you found the period to be within which the developer remains OK?

Do you stick to 45 secs for the bleach? It must be very powerful bleach to work to completion within 45 secs but it may be as simple as that. It's just that I have never seen any bleach process other than Bellini which suggests that 45 secs is long enough

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 29th June 2020, 06:08 PM
alexmuir alexmuir is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Glasgow, Scotland.
Posts: 2,190
Default

Im keeping mine in plastic chemical bottles. They are rectangular and have markings for volume. The neck is wide, maybe 10cm diameter. There is a separate inner lid that seals the bottle. I made up a litre of MGIV print developer a good few weeks ago, and put it in one of these bottles. It has hardly changed colour at all in around 6-8 weeks. I cant comment on the longevity of this product as I only got it last Wednesday.
Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 29th June 2020, 07:54 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Daventry, Northants
Posts: 7,523
Default

Thanks Alex. Can you clarify another point about the Nik and Trick C41 kit. I take it yours is the kit that has the 260 ml developer concentrate as that what the latest directions from the current kit suggests? I ask this because I have a copy of the mid July Bellini instructions and then it was 100ml of developer concentrate to make 1L of developer

What I am not sure about is how much bleach there is, 1L? It is difficult to make this out from the N&T pics and because it is used straight no mention is made of its size.

It looks like the stab concentrate is 100ml? The instructions make no mention of the amount to be used once made into stock solution but it looks as if 100ml makes 10L so a ratio of 1: 100.

Is this correct? It just suggests decanting a generous amount into a receptacle and dip your film into this for 10-30 secs. It says it can be reused but not for how many times. I am assuming, possibly wrongly that reusing means pouring the generous amount for the stab wash back into 5 L container.

Is it your understanding that if the stab conc makes 10L then you should use 5L for the first 8 films and then make up the second 5L for the second set of 8 films?

In this kit based on N&T instructions you will have developed, bleached and fixed without any intermediate washes and after a 3 min fix the generous receptacle of stab-wash will rid the film of fixer in as little as 10 secs but no more than 30secs is required.

Frankly I find this 10 -30 secs seems amazingly short. How much stab-wash liquid did you use and what did you use as a stab-wash time?

Thanks

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 29th June 2020, 10:23 PM
John King John King is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: County Durham
Posts: 2,165
Default Short times

If the kit suggests 45 seconds for the bleach fix This is hardly long enough for the bleach to neutralise the left over developer never mind bleach the unused emulsion away.

Even using a stop bath with continuous agitation for films to neutralise developer the recommended time is 30 seconds. To be honest I feel the times are suspect.

I wonder if there has been something missed in the translation?

Last edited by John King; 29th June 2020 at 10:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Support our Sponsors, they keep FADU free:   AG Photographic   Keyphoto   The Imaging Warehouse   Process Supplies   RH Designs   RK Photo   Second-hand Darkroom Supplies   Silverprint Ltd

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
canon AE-1 problems big paul Equipment miscellaneous 3 6th October 2018 04:38 PM
C41 processing problems EdmundH Colour film 2 7th March 2018 02:23 PM
Storage Problems joenail Monochrome Film 9 13th June 2013 12:15 PM
Damp problems in darkroom causing problems Neil Smith Darkroom 22 7th October 2010 06:21 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.