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Old 13th August 2021, 08:22 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Default Matching your film to you developer - Pictorial Planet videou

I recall the above video from John Finch was mentioned a few weeks back and someone said that he was going to try out the speed test procedure.

So has anyone used the test as described in the video? If someone by now has done this it might make my questions easier to answer but if not then your clarification of what you think John Finch is doing will be welcome . By way of reminder he is using FP4+ hence his initial setting of his film speed as 125

Primarily I am interested what he means using the "speeds" on his camera. When he stops down 4 stops from his meter reading of the grey board to get the zone 1 exposure, he seems to do this by half stops as he counts "1,2 one stop; 1,2 two stops etc

He then explains that from that zone 1 exposure he is going to open it up in one third stops each time. My interpretation of this is that he does this because it gives him the equivalent of zone 1 plus a series of increasing stops in thirds. So if stopping down 4 stops is done in half stops to get to zone 1 but then he uses one third stops for the tests, is he using two different dials?

This in effect gives him a series of negatives with ever increasing exposure which he translates into EI speeds and he writes these on the back of the paper prints so he has prints are speeds 100; 80; 60 etc

He then uses each print to detect the first zone 1 print that shows a discernible difference to the the film base plus fog neg taken to max black and it is that one that represents his personal film speed.

This all makes sense to me as a procedure BUT if I were to do this on my camera I cannot use third stops in either aperture settings or shutter speeds.

However my film speed dial does go up in one third stops so is that what John Finch is referring to as "speeds on the camera"?

Question 2: In my case I can use aperture or shutter speed to get down the 4 stops to zone 1 and then revert to film speed for the increase by one third at a time for the prints. So once I have taken the zone 1 exposure I then leave the aperture and shutter speed as they are and simply decrease the film speed.

In my case it isn't as simple as it appears to be for John as I have to move the programme dial from Aperture Priority mode to ISO mode, then change the ISO speed and then move it back to Aperture Priority mode but there we are.

So is this the correct way in my case to imitate what John Finch is doing?

The link to the video for those who haven't seen it is as follows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FVD761pU7o

Thanks for any help you can give

Mike
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Old 13th August 2021, 11:01 PM
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MartyNL MartyNL is offline
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Mike, in the description of the video link you posted this is what he states:

"If your camera cannot do 1/3 stops, as some of mine, you can usually do half stops by moving the f-stop ring between the stops on the lens. Thanks Erich for pointing that out!"

So his camera can do 1/3 stops using the shutter speed.
In the youtube video link description he suggests using 1/2 stops via the aperture control.
And he doesn't use or suggest the use of the film iso to control exposure.

Most camera's can't do 1/3 stops in Manual mode is my understanding. The mechanics just don't allow for it. The finer stepless settings/increments are only available in the (semi-)program modes where the electronics kick in.

And no I haven't tried it myself yet but I am intrigued.
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Old 13th August 2021, 11:18 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Thanks Marty for pointing out his reply to a commentator and the fact that his camera whatever it is, does do third stops. Not sure what a semi-programme mode is but I have programme modes which I think are stepless but I may be wrong
My camera can do half stops no problem but as my ISO dial does do third stops it struck me that via the ISO dial I may be able to replicate what John does as follows:

Once I have closed the stops by 4 to get zone 1 I then decrease the ISO dial progressively from 125 to 100 then 80 etc. Presumably the camera acts as if it was taking the same scene in the same light but with a film one third slower so increases the amount of light it allows into the camera and does this each time I decrease the ISO

Does this make sense as a way of doing what John Finch does via what I assume to shutter speeds which in his case do change in thirds of stops?

Mike
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Old 14th August 2021, 01:20 AM
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Mike,
By (semi-) program, I mean the photographer selects either the aperture or the shutter and the camera sets the other as opposed to fully automatic and the camera sets both.

I don't believe the iso method will work in manual mode. The mechanics simply set the specific aperture and shutter and nothing inbetween, no subtlety, no nuance, no variation regardless of what your iso says. In manual mode 1/125 @f5.6 is exactly that no, a little bit higher or a little bit lower even by altering the iso dial. That only happens when the electronics kick in, in one of the program modes. The computer chip takes control and can electronically choose the aperture/shutter steplessly. But in manual mode, we can mostly only choose shutter speeds in full stops and apertures in half stops.

That's what I gather and hopefully, others will confirm.

The iso is connected to your light meter but in manual mode you can still only change the shutter and aperture in whole stops and half stops respectively.
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Old 14th August 2021, 02:46 AM
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Later Nikon film cameras that share electronics with digital ones have one-third stops for shutter and aperture. However I've set mine to do just half stops to reduce the number of clicks needed for large changes. The difference between third and half stops isn't much and is under my normal tolerance for error, actually well under.
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Old 14th August 2021, 11:55 AM
Nat Polton Nat Polton is offline
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http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.or...1&d=1628941087



I watched the video a few times when it came out.
Its a simple enough task to undertake, but I found things a lot clearer by making my own Tick Sheet.

I have not seen the video recently.
I think he may have slipped into halves and thirds unknowingly.
In the comments I think somebody did mention that their camera would not do thirds of a stop and the reply was halves would do quite happily.

I am not sure if it was on his own site or Youtube he mentions that the Personal Developing Time, that's the tests to be done after this one , the film speed tests, won't work for semi stand developing.


Have a look at my tick sheet and see if it makes things a bit clearer.
(Don't take it as Gospel though that I am correct.)


John Finch was posting Youtube videos on Tuesdays and Fridays, and his last video finished with him saying he would post again on his next regular slot.
He has not been on for about three weeks now.
I do hope he is not in some sort of medical or personal crisis.

Hopefully my Tick Sheet is of some assistance.

Cheers.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf FILM TEST TICK SHEET.pdf (575.4 KB, 604 views)
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Old 14th August 2021, 03:30 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Thanks Marty and Nat. Yes it would look like there is no way of using my ISO dial to replicate what John Finch was doing. It simply tells the camera that it is dealing with a different speed of film which then just alters what the whole fully auto programmes do

Unfortunately because I have fully auto and not semi auto programmes, even the shutter or aperture programme, when used, simply uses the chosen prog as the priority but then proceeds to alter the shutter speed/aperture to compensate the other component to ensure the correct amount of light is delivered. They cannot be overridden

It would look as if I will have to use the M (metered manual) programme to do the test. This one seems to allow me to over or under compensate for for exposure so I can over or under expose but in half steps only

Interestingly while John Finch used 1/3 stops he didn't find that one third made any difference or it was so marginal that he went to half a stop under so his FP4+ was rated at 80 and not 100.

Just one more thing that I was curious about, having watched the video a few times is: how does he know he is metering a zone 5 grey board? It would seem to be important to use a proper grey board/card as it is this exposure that is used for the 4 stops to give a zone 1 neg

If he then said that half stops were fine it might mean that 1/3 stops are just too small to make any real difference

It always helps when there is another person who has the identical camera, mine is a Pentax MZ7, to compare notes but on a forum of our size this is unlikely

Nat, just as a matter of interest,when you did your test in half stops what did you find your real speed to be and did you have an 18% grey card or use something else?

I have what an old book says is an approximately 18% card inside it which I can use. I assume that over the years such cards do not lose their correct zone die to ageing?

I got the book secondhand but it doesn't look as if the grey has faded.

Thanks

Mike

Mike
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Old 14th August 2021, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
Just one more thing that I was curious about, having watched the video a few times is: how does he know he is metering a zone 5 grey board? It would seem to be important to use a proper grey board/card as it is this exposure that is used for the 4 stops to give a zone 1 neg
I believe he just uses a fairly neutral piece of card and relies on his meter to give a zone v or middle grey on the negative. It's really not necessary to use a proper grey card as the camera's meter will represent whatever's in front of it as middle grey. His exposure was 1/320 @ f5.6 and from there, he goes 4 stops either way.
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Old 14th August 2021, 07:19 PM
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Uwe Pilz Uwe Pilz is offline
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I don't think that it is necessary to have a test strip with half or even thirs of stops. I work with (whole) stops. What you get it is a curve. This curve does not contains more information if you have points between the stops.

The only area this counts are the zones 0...2. Her you see what happens if you have less light. It is important for the speed point, if you calculatie it form to 0.1 density rule.

At the second thought even that is not necessary. The tiny bit of density you have in such zone cannot brought at the paper.
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Old 14th August 2021, 08:03 PM
Nat Polton Nat Polton is offline
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I achieved a result of 125 iso for FP4+.

I used home made 510 Pyro, 1:100 dilution, 20 c. 3 mins 30 sec. using Ilford agitation.

In his book The Art of Black and White Developing he says......

" The phenidone, no doubt, helps boost the developers film speed to normal or very near normal (FP4+ 100 iso. HP5+ 320 iso. both just losing about 1/3 of a stop)."

As for my grey card it is a home made one as mentioned on this site by another member.
Wilko's FLINTSTONE EMULSION painted onto a 12" square board.
A 75ml sample pot goes a long way.
I checked it out with a virtually new Sekonic Flashmate L-308X meter.
My reference is a 1977 edition of The Kodak Professional Photoguide.
There is a fold out colour scale and grey card inside.
Only 44 years old,so hopefully not faded etc..

The homemade WILKO board is 1/2 stop darker than the Kodak scale.

Cheers.
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