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  #1  
Old 10th October 2021, 11:00 PM
Coastman Coastman is offline
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Default Huge grain

Hi
Twice now I have developed Fomapan 200 in Rodinal, 1+25 for 10.30 minutes @ 20c , agitate for the first 30 secs then 3 inversions every minute.
I then scan the negs into the computer, all this results in huge grain which looks worse in the sky.
Any suggestions as to what might cause this ?
Thanks in advance
T.G
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  #2  
Old 11th October 2021, 07:11 AM
TonyMiller TonyMiller is offline
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Massive Dev chart gives 5 minutes for the combination you mention!
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regards,

Tony
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  #3  
Old 11th October 2021, 07:30 AM
Coastman Coastman is offline
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Jeez, ok ,thanks , I'll check it out, I got those those times and dilutions from somewhere, can't remember where.
Won't do that again
Cheers
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  #4  
Old 11th October 2021, 11:44 AM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coastman View Post
...all this results in huge grain which looks worse in the sky.
There has been conversations and posts made about 'obtaining HUGE grain' over the years, so to some, you have gotten what they have tried to get but failed!

Terry S
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  #5  
Old 11th October 2021, 12:03 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Coastman, while the grain size may be related to the development time in the sense that you appear to have doubled the correct development time, I suspect this may be marginal only

However Rodinal is renown for producing large grain especially in 35mm negs.

However there are a few variables we do not know as follows:
1. Was this a 135 or medium format film? MF at the same enlargement will show much smaller grain due simply to the size of the negative

2. The grain you see is from a scan and may be subject to artefacts of the scanner or its settings

The best way to decide on grain is either a large magnification loupe on the neg or better still a grain focuser on the neg's projection from an enlarger onto a baseboard

Finally the grain depends on the neg's enlargement so what would be the equivalent if your scan was translated into a print?

My interpretation of what you have said is that you'd prefer not to have grain at this size and in this case I'd be inclined to look for a finer grain developer

If that is of interest then please ask about such developers here

It might be worth a separate thread

Cheers

Mike
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  #6  
Old 11th October 2021, 03:09 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Two things come to mind, Fomapan emulsions are slightly softer than Ilford, Kodak, etc, and secondly you are using Rodinal.

Rodinal now contains some free Hydroxied and that has the effect of additional softening of the emulsion, if your temperatures aren't +/- 1°C of that chosen 20°C through out all stages including washing you run a very high risk of getting micro/incipient reticulation, Kodak call it surface artefacts. This is not the same as full blown reticulation and usually just affects the surface super coat of a film, but with 120 can affect the anti-curl layer on the rear as well.

The effect of this micro reticulation is more apparent and sometimes quite severeer graininess. This is just a possibility but I have seen it with the old version of Tmax 400.

It isn't helping that you are over developing, Foma themselves recommend 9-10 mins at 20°C at 1:50 dilution, that's for Fomadon R09, which is now the same as Rodinal.

Ian
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  #7  
Old 11th October 2021, 04:49 PM
John King John King is offline
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Default Rodinal = LARGE grain

Rodinal is a high acutance developer by which I mean it creates apparent sharpness by an 'edge' effect. Not only on the edges of subjects in the picture but on individual grains of silver.

Keeping the grain manageable you need something like Ilford ID11/KodakD76 or one of the clones. For fine grain choose one of the dedicated fine grain developers and you will get fine grain but at the expense of sharpness because fine grain developers do this because they are partially solvent an soften the edges. ID11 is a compromise between true fine grain and acutance developers. Fomopan film is not particularly fine grain film anyway when compared with FP4 or even Kentmere

Over developing and using anything like Rodinal is a true quality death knell. I have Fomopan 200 negatives that were processed in ID11 that will enlarge up to 12x16 with little obvious grain. Scan the negs and you will get more obvious grain especially in the sky areas where it isn't disguised by variable shades of grey
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Old 12th October 2021, 06:43 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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John, Rodinal is also an excellent fine grain developer, some of the best 35mm negative enlargements I've seen were processed in Rodinal.

Rodinal was the recommended developer for Agfa AP/APX 25 and 100 films, it's also recomended by Foma.

However like any developer and film combination it's important to get the right balance of EU and development time, also dilution ti get the best possible results.

John Davies the British Landscape/Cityscapephotographer teaches in Liverpool. Students use(d) FP4 in ID-11. John noticed quite different levels of grain in their prints. He realised the main variable factor was development temperature control across the entide process cycle,

Some years ago I had my photo taken for a magazine article, the photographer used 120 Tmax 400 which I gave him, I was shooting LF and also with a Leica loaded with 35mm Tmax 400.

He processed the films he's shot in my replenished Xtol while I cooked, I realised after he didn't check the temperatures of the stop, fix, or wash. I then processed my 35mm Tmax 400. His negatives were so excessively grainy they were unuseable, mine were fine. It wasn't a film issue as the two rolls came from the same batch of 20 or 30 rolls I used before and after without a problem.

When I firts started film hardening was relatively poor, I cut my teeth with FP3 & HP3 - ex Government surplus stock because as a teenager it was cheap Actually Tri-x and other Kodak films were equally as soft, anyway these films would reticulate badly with temperature deviations so we had to be precise.

With better hardening people get lazy but don't realise there's still potential for issues of increased graininess.

Fuji Acros is the worst in Rodinal thebemulsion can frill and separate from the basse at teh edges, it's rumured to use Whale gelatine asb opposed to Bovine.

In Germany there is or was a long scholl of thought that Rodinal should be used at arounf 15 to 16°C as it then gave finer grain. That's simply not true it just cuts the potention for surface artefacts.micro reticulation.

Ian
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  #9  
Old 12th October 2021, 07:44 PM
John King John King is offline
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Default Rodinal

I must completely and utterly disagree with you that Rodinal is a fine grain developer. - Simply it isn't.It is an acutance developer designed to give apparent sharpness of objects not to suppress grain.

It works better with slow film sub 100iso where the grain is fine anyway but over developing any film in Rodinal will give you very obvious grain and possibly one of the worst is Fomopan 200. It is good in ID11 but Rodinal - very definitely NO!

How it works is with high dilutions and minimal agitation the effects can easily be seen at moderate enlargements because of the edge effect. It depends upon high dilution, 1-25, 1-50, 1-100 are the best it can be used at 1-200 but the dilution is so weak the development times are ridiculously long. 1-50 is probably the best compromise with regard to time.

Over development nullifies this sharpening affect and you will get huge grain as the original author has found out

With the minimal agitation suggested by Agfa was 10 seconds constant for the first minute the 1 single inversion every 30 seconds (20degrees C) The action of the developer because of the minimal agitation at the edges of different tone means over the darker tones the edges exhaust more quickly and at really big enlargements (20x16 from 35mm) you will see a very fine clear line very much the same as with digital enlargements where the unsharp mask has been used. This also happens with the individual grains of silver halide and makes the grain more obvious.

With ID11 the acutance is almost non existent but what makes it a very good 'standard' developer is the actual definition is probably the highest you will get when using film. Rodinal because if the sharpness actually destroys/disguises some of the detail because of the grain.

I don't always believe everything that is printed in Wikipedia but if you search 'Acutance' what is printed about the effect on film and digital covers all the points I have I have mentioned before.

Last edited by John King; 12th October 2021 at 07:56 PM.
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  #10  
Old 15th October 2021, 02:59 PM
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Uwe Pilz Uwe Pilz is offline
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I have worked with F200/ Rodinal for some time with good success. (BTW: I never got decent results with F100 and F400 and Rodinal).

I used Rodinal 1+50, 16 (!) deg Celsius , 16 minutes, continuous agitation. Speed ist 125 ASA with this combination.

You get rather fine grainde negatives with beautiful grey shades.
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