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Old 2nd January 2009, 02:00 PM
Ag-Bromide Ag-Bromide is offline
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Exclamation Graded or VC papers for Pyro-Negs?

On some photo forums, it is argued that graded papers provide the best highlights, while VC papers can makes whites look a bit dull and dirty, so some feedback from those who enlarge their pyro/cathecol based developers please on your own preferences and findings.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 02:40 PM
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As far as I can tell, most of the original dev times given for PMK by Gordon Hutchings were based on printing on graded papers. If you take those same negs and print them on VC paper without filtration, they will print with much lower contrast and highlights will have very little separation. Also local contrast throughout the print will be reduced greatly. The yellow green stain filters out a lot of blue light. That is equivalent to dialling in extra yellow on your filters which reduces contrast. However, if you give extra neg development you can compensate for that loss of contrast and get it all back. But the print HD curve will be different from a normal negative developer. You either like it or you don't. And because graded papers are only sensitive to blue light, and the stain is supposedly proportional to density, then highlight contrast is increased throughout the print, meaning local contrast is increased. But again this is largely controlled by development.

I think a lot of people never do proper print testing when calibrating neg dev. They just take the given dev times from sites such as DigitalTruth and think it applies to VC paper when often it doesn't. Hence the opinion that Pyro devs give flat highlights. Yes they will if you don't give the correct devlopment. But then so will normal developers.

The easy answer is to take a pyro neg and print it on both graded and VC paper and see the difference which is dramatic. But if you give the neg enough dev for VC paper and then try and print it on graded paper, then it will probably be much too contrasty. i.e. pyro negs are not usually good for printing on both types of paper, you pick one or other type to calibrate your development. But if your standard is to print on graded and you have a neg which is too contrasty, then you can print on VC to get some control back. Or if calbrate to print on VC and you have a soft neg, then you can print on graded paper to get some contrast back.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 03:14 PM
Ag-Bromide Ag-Bromide is offline
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Originally Posted by percepts View Post
However, if you give extra neg development you can compensate for that loss of contrast and get it all back. But the print HD curve will be different from a normal negative developer. You either like it or you don't. And because graded papers are only sensitive to blue light, and the stain is supposedly proportional to density, then highlight contrast is increased throughout the print, meaning local contrast is increased. But again this is largely controlled by development.

I think a lot of people never do proper print testing when calibrating neg dev. They just take the given dev times from sites such as DigitalTruth and think it applies to VC paper when often it doesn't. Hence the opinion that Pyro devs give flat highlights. Yes they will if you don't give the correct devlopment. But then so will normal developers.

The easy answer is to take a pyro neg and print it on both graded and VC paper and see the difference which is dramatic. But if you give the neg enough dev for VC paper and then try and print it on graded paper, then it will probably be much too contrasty. i.e. pyro negs are not usually good for printing on both types of paper, you pick one or other type to calibrate your development. But if your standard is to print on graded and you have a neg which is too contrasty, then you can print on VC to get some control back. Or if calbrate to print on VC and you have a soft neg, then you can print on graded paper to get some contrast back.
The stain acting as a contrast reducing filter makes sense, hence I would probably use graded papers in that case. I agree that people take development times at face value without experimenting to find out what works the best for themselves. Some of the times on Digitaltruth can lead to greviously under developed negatives with some films such as Efke IR820. I always take the manufacturers times as a starting point and will alter both times and exposure index if it gives me the results I prefer.................................. Now back to the pyro discussion.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 04:34 PM
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Ag, the majority of my negatives, certainly 135 to 4x5, are developed to print on VC papers. I must say I'm very happy with the ease of printing and how they look using a Multigrade 500 head set on average at grade 2.5. By trying to peg negatives that print at g2.5 I'm exactly midway between the extremes of grades (g0-5 with this head). This allows me the maximum of flexability in my printing.

I've not tried to print them on graded papers.

I don't use the science of sensitometry, I rely on my emotions, if it looks and feels right to me then I can live with it. Perhaps odd for someone who has worked in the sciences all of their working life

The staining developers I now use are PMK pyro, Pyrocat-HD and 510-pyro.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Ag-Bromide View Post
The stain acting as a contrast reducing filter makes sense, hence I would probably use graded papers in that case.
Care is needed here. On VC paper the stain is contrast reducing. On graded paper it is the opposite, i.e. contrast increasing. This is because Graded is only sensitive to blue light and the stain is proportional (apparently). That means the denser highlights have more stain and therefore filter more blue light in the highlights which means paper prints whiter. However, a properly developed pyro neg looks thin and the reason is because the stain adds that printing density. Hutchings suggests viewing pyro negs on a light box through a blue filter to give a better visual idea of how it will print. The blue filter makes it look more like a normal negative.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 05:24 PM
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[QUOTE=Ag-Bromide;4509]SNIP; On some photo forums, it is argued that graded papers provide the best highlights, while VC papers can makes whites look a bit dull and dirty.[QUOTE]

All I can say here is they are not using the VC printing grades correctly when needed. If I need a bit more bite to the high values I burn-in or pre-flash (vary rarely) using a higher grade, for me one of the beauties of split grade printing.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 06:03 PM
Ag-Bromide Ag-Bromide is offline
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Trevor, I knew you were a user of staining developers and was hoping that you would contribute to this thread. (I don't use the science of sensitometry, I rely on my emotions, if it looks and feels right to me then I can live with it. Perhaps odd for someone who has worked in the sciences all of their working life), and with your 2nd post. (All I can say here is they are not using the VC printing grades correctly when needed. If I need a bit more bite to the high values I burn-in or pre-flash (vary rarely) using a higher grade, for me one of the beauties of split grade printing).

Without seeing an enlargement made from a pyro negative, it`s not easy to understand what some people mean by flat highlights on VC papers and your point of them not using the VC grades correctly is a valid point. I haven`t bought a staining developer yet, so maybe I will try one sold by Silverprint, Retrophotographic or Peter Hogan. I wont buy the raw chemicals though.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 06:31 PM
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I believe that the differences in the negatives produced using different developers are somewhat irrelevant at the printmaking stage. My view is that photographers who produce prints with dull highlights as suggested in this thread are simply making the wrong judgement when making the tests for the print.

For example, in split grade printing many printers use too much soft filtration, ruin the highlights and produce dull flat prints. An important and unavoidable fact is that prints dry darker and highlights are lost, a fact that many printers ignore or have not yet figured that these things happen. For years I've taught workshops and in colleges and found these two factors the most common cause of poor dull prints. Trevor touched on this problem in one of his posts when he mentioned using a slightly harder grade when using VC paper.

I started my printing on graded papers and still use them but also use VC papers, making the choice of which paper being dependent on the qualities I need in the image. Toning is a good example for both papers respond differently to selenium, gold and sepia.

I also use a number of different developers including a staining dev but they are not considered when I make the print. I'm very happy to rely on my judgement and printing abilities.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 07:07 PM
Ag-Bromide Ag-Bromide is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les McLean View Post
I believe that the differences in the negatives produced using different developers are somewhat irrelevant at the printmaking stage. My view is that photographers who produce prints with dull highlights as suggested in this thread are simply making the wrong judgement when making the tests for the print.

For example, in split grade printing many printers use too much soft filtration, ruin the highlights and produce dull flat prints. An important and unavoidable fact is that prints dry darker and highlights are lost, a fact that many printers ignore or have not yet figured that these things happen. For years I've taught workshops and in colleges and found these two factors the most common cause of poor dull prints. Trevor touched on this problem in one of his posts when he mentioned using a slightly harder grade when using VC paper.

I started my printing on graded papers and still use them but also use VC papers, making the choice of which paper being dependent on the qualities I need in the image. Toning is a good example for both papers respond differently to selenium, gold and sepia.

I also use a number of different developers including a staining dev but they are not considered when I make the print. I'm very happy to rely on my judgement and printing abilities.
I am satisfied with my usual non-staining B&W film developer and my prints. Pyro developers get mentioned a lot on various photo-forums with users extolling the unique tonalities or qualities that they get with staining (tanning?) developers compared with their regular film developers. I want to know what it is that I`m missing out on, hence my questions about what I have read on photo-forums. The advantages and disadvantages. "Are they the magic bullet miracle brews that some claim them to be or simply another tool for the photographer?"
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Old 2nd January 2009, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag-Bromide View Post
I am satisfied with my usual non-staining B&W film developer and my prints. Pyro developers get mentioned a lot on various photo-forums with users extolling the unique tonalities or qualities that they get with staining (tanning?) developers compared with their regular film developers. I want to know what it is that I`m missing out on, hence my questions about what I have read on photo-forums. The advantages and disadvantages. "Are they the magic bullet miracle brews that some claim them to be or simply another tool for the photographer?"

There is no magic bullet that so many contibutors to forums swear-by. Chemistry, paper and toners are simply tools for us to use and learn about. I firmly believe that excellent prints can be made from all combinations but to do so requires hard work and application from the photographer/printer. To believe in the "magic bullet" is, in my opinion to be living in a fantasy world. This is why I believe that judgement is the strongest and most useful tool in our armoury.
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