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  #1  
Old 15th February 2019, 08:16 PM
longhouselife
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Default film/dev/print testing thoughts

Having started to spend some time experimenting, practicing etc in the print process. Using negatives in both 35mm and 120 format, the Valoy and the LPL7700 enlargers, one paper/dev combination - I am finding that what I could get away with in a digital workflow with these same negatives was much greater than I am experiencing in the wet process..!

Generally it seems that only slightly less than perfect or perfect negatives allow a straightforward print process..? Anything less than this is really making life difficult to impossible in the darkroom.!

2019 I have decided to use just one film developer (Adox Rodinal) and two film stocks (FP4+ 120, and Rollei RPX400 35mm).

So. My question/s:

Testing film and getting a good in camera negative, developing those negatives. What, How, Why etc..?

Setting up some basic tests in the darkroom to calibrate the enlargers, contrast, developing times etc. Again, What, How, Why..?

I have done a little searching and skim reading here on the forum. My mind processes information quite literally, so if I read something that makes sense I treat it as such, but can then get confused by the next thing that makes sense; Make Sense..?
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Old 15th February 2019, 09:10 PM
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MartyNL MartyNL is offline
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Hi Matt, I’ve been doing a little testing myself complete with a Stouffer 21 step wedge and Macbeth tr 944 densitometer. Just last Sunday I tried 9 different fiber based papers and 4 (sometimes 5) different paper developers. I also tried development times of 90sec / 150sec / 300sec so I’ve got at least 40 of these samples.

The reason I’ve started with the paper rather than film is because it’s important to know what tones can actually be recorded or reproduced on the final print.

My next step is going to be several films and some choice developers.
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:26 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longhouselife View Post
Having started to spend some time experimenting, practicing etc in the print process. Using negatives in both 35mm and 120 format, the Valoy and the LPL7700 enlargers, one paper/dev combination - I am finding that what I could get away with in a digital workflow with these same negatives was much greater than I am experiencing in the wet process..!

Generally it seems that only slightly less than perfect or perfect negatives allow a straightforward print process..? Anything less than this is really making life difficult to impossible in the darkroom.!

2019 I have decided to use just one film developer (Adox Rodinal) and two film stocks (FP4+ 120, and Rollei RPX400 35mm).

So. My question/s:

Testing film and getting a good in camera negative, developing those negatives. What, How, Why etc..?
A search of FADU should give you an article by David Allen on film testing and its connection to the correct print time. I cannot recall on which thread David set out his procedure nor have I tried it but it sounded pretty good to me.It may even be in the Articles section

You might also want to read Barry Thornton's film testing procedure. Brock's( who's a friend here on FADU) has an Online Darkroom site where he has reproduced the articles. Worth a look

As someone interested in obtaining knowledge I'd try and obtain Ansell's Adams book "The Negative" and Tim Rudman's book "The Photographer's Master Printing Course and finally Carson Graves " The Zone System for 35mm Photographers"

Wide reading around the subject is worthwhile. As Dudley Moore said to Peter Cook in their sketch about becoming proficient in piano playing "You can't buy musical talent like a pound of sausages" when Cook simply wanted an instant shortcut to becoming an expert

Mike
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  #4  
Old 15th February 2019, 10:36 PM
longhouselife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyNL View Post
Hi Matt, I’ve been doing a little testing myself complete with a Stouffer 21 step wedge and Macbeth tr 944 densitometer. Just last Sunday I tried 9 different fiber based papers and 4 (sometimes 5) different paper developers. I also tried development times of 90sec / 150sec / 300sec so I’ve got at least 40 of these samples.

The reason I’ve started with the paper rather than film is because it’s important to know what tones can actually be recorded or reproduced on the final print.

My next step is going to be several films and some choice developers.
I did a pretty basic test of my paper the other night.

It's Adox 311 Easy Print. The test I did was as follows:
  • LPL enlarger - all colour dials set to zero. I'm printing on 7x5 so set my enlarger to cover this size.
  • Basic test strip at 0.5 sec intervals to ascertain the base speed. Paper white to just off white.
  • Develop at 20 degs for 50 secs as per the Adox Guide included in the paper pack. Developer: Adox Neutol Eco 1:4.

The Adox paper is very fast, just 1 sec produces 'off white'...

What I am finding is that printing 120 negs at 7x5 is giving me extremely short exposure times <=6 secs. I am using a range of negatives taken over the last year to try and get a feel for where issues arise etc. Only where I have a good negative can I get some kind of exposure time that would allow any manipulation if required.

My process is to try and get a test strip using 0.5 Stop increases to find the base exposure of negative. From that dial in the exposure with one or two more test strips. Make a full 7x5 exposure. Develop/Stop/Fix, Wash and Dry, observe under daylight. Make any contrast adjustments to taste.

I am not really rating the negative quality I have. Some images I had gotten good digital scans/process from are turning into the most difficult to get even a decent print from..!

So. For me. I think I need to concentrate more on getting a Good Negative first.

I generally use an old FED2 rangefinder ( no meter) or the Mamiya RZ67 or Yashica MAT 124G (no meter). I either use Sunny 16 as a rough guide or if I have more time I use a Minolta IVf lightmeter. I'm generally rating film at either box speed or overexposing by 1 stop.
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  #5  
Old 15th February 2019, 10:51 PM
longhouselife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
A search of FADU should give you an article by David Allen on film testing and its connection to the correct print time. I cannot recall on which thread David set out his procedure nor have I tried it but it sounded pretty good to me.It may even be in the Articles section

You might also want to read Barry Thornton's film testing procedure. Brock's( who's a friend here on FADU) has an Online Darkroom site where he has reproduced the articles. Worth a look

As someone interested in obtaining knowledge I'd try and obtain Ansell's Adams book "The Negative" and Tim Rudman's book "The Photographer's Master Printing Course and finally Carson Graves " The Zone System for 35mm Photographers"

Wide reading around the subject is worthwhile. As Dudley Moore said to Peter Cook in their sketch about becoming proficient in piano playing "You can't buy musical talent like a pound of sausages" when Cook simply wanted an instant shortcut to becoming an expert

Mike
I have a copy of The Negative.

I've found the David Allen comment here on FADU. It would take me at least 10 reads to get my head around what he writes. As someone who has spent their life teaching, leading and Coaching/instructing in the Outdoor Adventure world I know a bit about how I learn. Reading contributes a very minute part of the relevancy to me. Practical tasks that I can physically try are where I learn fastest and gain understanding deepest. Written and spoken words need to be of the kind "Do 'A' followed by 'B' - What do you see" type statements.

I've already been looking at the Online Darkroom website, so will delve some more there and here.
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  #6  
Old 16th February 2019, 09:26 AM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Matt with printing, if your printing times are so short then the simple wY IS TO STOP THE ENLARGER LENS DOWN, unlike a camera lens, whichoften has a sweet spot, ( with my cameras, which are all rather old, mostly 50's with their lenses I find that 11 is the besraperture to use) a good enlarger lens does not have one, so with smaller sheets of paper then stop it down all the way, that should give you better print times, also, if you are trying to get times without a negative in the enlarger, that is fine if you are trying to calibrate something like an analyser/pro, but in general won't realy tell you much other than how long it takes to get a tone in the paper, test strips for paper tone are also helpfull for split getting flash times for paper, when you briefully expose the paper to white light to get it started with some negatives,something you don't need to worry about this early in your journey, go for the prints, make your test strips for the actual print without worrying about the rest yet, concentrate on getting printing right first, master that and later when your can print easily then think about moving on, \Yes, wet printing can be more challinging than digi, anything less than a perfect negative needs more work, burning,dodgeing Ect, but that is part of the fun of darkroom work and will very soon become second nature, as for film processing, yes, to start with jut one film/developer combination is the way to go, know your combo backwards, but also remember that the times on the bottle are just starting points, you may need to increase them, just as a for instance, with my Fomapan 400, the suggested start is 12 minutes at 1/50 but I have found that it varies sdepending on the sibject/light on dull days 18 minutes are needed, on bright sunny days the for 35mm I may only need 14 minutes, but for 120 generaly 16 to 18 minutes, 129 sometimes needs different times to 35mm for the same subject/light, to produce good negatives,
Hope this all helps
Richard
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Old 16th February 2019, 10:08 AM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
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Hello Matt,
It sounds like, as a first step, you should sort out a repeatable film exposure method. No point in doing time-consuming testing if you are guessing your exposures. Sunny 16 might be ok for the West coast of California, but definitely not for the UK. It is a really bright sunny day at the moment, here in North Yorkshire. Out of interest I just went outside and took an exposure reading that I know from experience will give good shadow detail. This was 3 stops more than the Sunny 16 rule would have had me use. So if I'd used the Sunny 16 rule I would have underexposed by 3 full stops.
Explore light reading methods. And stick with one camera, one film, one film developer. And one exposure meter. Bracket your exposures, one stop up and one stop down. Photograph subjects that interest you in the sort of light that brings out the best in them. And get a notebook and keep notes.
Try to get negatives that have detail in the deepest shadows. You can check this by putting them in the enlarger and viewing them on the white baseboard - and comparing density with the clear film edges. Highlights should be not too dense. You should be able to just read magazine text through them.
Good luck.

Alan
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Old 16th February 2019, 10:09 AM
EdmundH EdmundH is offline
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My experience is that getting the negative right is critical to getting good prints. Whilst there are ways to get good prints from a less than perfect negative, it can be a case of diminishing returns and sometimes not worth the effort unless you really like the image. I'm not one to do detailed tests, my outlook is far too random for that! - However my general principle is to ensure that the negative has sufficient exposure for the shadow areas, and that development is not extended, thus avoiding too much contrast.
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  #9  
Old 16th February 2019, 10:11 AM
longhouselife
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Originally Posted by Richard Gould View Post
Matt with printing, if your printing times are so short then the simple wY IS TO STOP THE ENLARGER LENS DOWN, unlike a camera lens, whichoften has a sweet spot, ( with my cameras, which are all rather old, mostly 50's with their lenses I find that 11 is the besraperture to use) a good enlarger lens does not have one, so with smaller sheets of paper then stop it down all the way, that should give you better print times, also, if you are trying to get times without a negative in the enlarger, that is fine if you are trying to calibrate something like an analyser/pro, but in general won't realy tell you much other than how long it takes to get a tone in the paper, test strips for paper tone are also helpfull for split getting flash times for paper, when you briefully expose the paper to white light to get it started with some negatives,something you don't need to worry about this early in your journey, go for the prints, make your test strips for the actual print without worrying about the rest yet, concentrate on getting printing right first, master that and later when your can print easily then think about moving on, \Yes, wet printing can be more challinging than digi, anything less than a perfect negative needs more work, burning,dodgeing Ect, but that is part of the fun of darkroom work and will very soon become second nature, as for film processing, yes, to start with jut one film/developer combination is the way to go, know your combo backwards, but also remember that the times on the bottle are just starting points, you may need to increase them, just as a for instance, with my Fomapan 400, the suggested start is 12 minutes at 1/50 but I have found that it varies sdepending on the sibject/light on dull days 18 minutes are needed, on bright sunny days the for 35mm I may only need 14 minutes, but for 120 generaly 16 to 18 minutes, 129 sometimes needs different times to 35mm for the same subject/light, to produce good negatives,
Hope this all helps
Richard
Yes, all helps.

Sometimes I wonder if I have a natural inclination to make life complicated because I see some value to be gained from knowing..? When actually, in this case, I should just shoot film, develop and print as it comes...! Then I go back to thinking that as a Yorkshireman I have to have value from the pennies spent on materials, so need to find a way of increasing the payback

The 'Makes Sense' process was at work last night as I read the Barry Thornton articles over at the Online Darkroom website.... I think I will burn off a roll of FP4+ in the Mamiya next cloudy bright day we have following his test process. Then develop in the Rodinal rather than the last drop of LC29 I have. Once I get the Rollei film I'll do the same with the FED2.

Start with the canera's and the film stock/dev - begin to understand at a deeper level from that point. In the meantime continue to use the stock of 7x5 in the darkroom to produce the odd decent print and a lot of learning...
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Old 16th February 2019, 10:49 AM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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When \i was starting out, 60 years ago, I learnt more from simply taking photographs and printing them than any amount of testing or books, one very simple book to learn the bascics of using a camera and then developing and printing, I have done basic tests, such as testing various film developers against Rodinal, or sometimes different papers in warm tone or standard paper developers when I try a new paper, but being a Jerseyman, I don't like wasting money and as soon as I find out what happens I simply get on with it, just get to know your film/developercombos by using them untill you know exactly what it does, printing the same, no amount of reading in the early days, or running tests or anything else will help you, it only come from experiance and trial and error, you can learn more from prints that go wrong or films that don't quite work out as you think they should than any amount of formally testing this and that my advice is if you want to learn how to get the best out of your photography is simply takeing and printing photographs, leave testing Ect alone until you know your film developer paper backwards, then if you want to start testing, but I would bet that you won't need to conduct that many tests unless you become a photographer that finds this more interesting than actualy taking photographs, no offence intended but I know and have known many photographers that spend all their time conducting tests and never making actual photographs,remember, what works for one photographer does not always work for another, and to find out what works for you you need to take bits from here and bits from there, remember, what Barry Thornton wants from a negative maybe not what you want,so maybe part of his methods will work for you but the next book you read will tell you something completely different and foloowing that logic you would always be back to square one, as a for instance a few years ago I was givin a book by Eddie Ephraums, a wonderful book, wonderful photographs, the first half is the photographs and how he made them, the second half all the imfo on printing methods,chemicals, formula for making your own developers Etc and I became very interested indeed,and tried to emulate him and his methods, forgot about how I worked, and for a long time I fhrew away more FB paper than I produced prints, maybe one half decent print for 20 or 30 sheets, I was on the point of giving up, when some one asked me to make some photographs for their walls, I went out and took the photographs, printed them my way, and was back using bits of what I learnt from Creative Elements and my own methods and was getting print after print with ease

Richard

Last edited by Richard Gould; 16th February 2019 at 11:02 AM.
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