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  #1  
Old 24th April 2011, 02:54 PM
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Default Alkaline bath after acid fixer

This Easter I have been printing a big copies and reading a old book. This book talks about alcaline processing after fixer and says that is recommended a bath 1% sodium carbonate after acid fixer especially in big copies. The procedure would fix and wash a little and then two or three minutes in carbonate solution. The book says that is easier wash thoroughtly the copy and specially when we want later teatments such as toning, as it eliminates many of the possible reason for failure in these treatments.

What do you think about it? Does anyone follows this technique?

Thanks,
Rubén
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Old 24th April 2011, 04:14 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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It part of the archival process, with FB paper, after fixing a brief wash then 2 or 3 minutes in Hypo Clearing Solution,( I used to use Kodak Hypo Clear) which makes the fixer easier to wash out of the FB paper, There are various preparations on the market from Ilford, Fotospeed and I think Tetenal do one, The kodak is the cheapest and is a powder which makes a stock solution which you dilute 1/3, or 200ml stock to 1 litre of water, Just follow the instructions as the various makes have different methods,It can also reduce the wash time with FB paper, with RC paper you don't need it but most, if not all, of the printers who use FB paper use one or other of the Hypo clearing agents,
Richard
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Old 24th April 2011, 04:15 PM
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I am another fan / user of Kodak Hypo Clear.

Neil.
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Old 24th April 2011, 04:54 PM
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Thanks for your answer. I use hipo cleaning too, but this tecnique is after fix and before first wash and hipoclening... Is not for to eliminate tiosulfate, is for eliminate acids.

I don´t know...

Rubén
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Old 25th April 2011, 10:02 AM
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Hi Rebén,

Perhaps you are confusing different information. Sodium Sulfite is the main active ingredient in Hypo-Clear/Wash Aid solutions. There are many different formulae for Hypo-Clear/Wash Aid that have additional chemicals to cope with varying types of water, expansion of the emulsion, etc. Perhaps what you read is that Sodium Sulphate can be used on its own?

A well know Hypo-Clear/Wash Aid formula is:

Distilled water (50°C) .............. 750 ml
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ............... 100 g
Sodium bisulfite .................... 25.0 g
EDTA, Na4 ........................... 2.0 g
Sodium citrate ...................... 5.0 g
Distilled water to make ............. 1.0 l

Dilute 1:5 for use.

However, many people prefer to reduce the formula to:

Water (125º F) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 750 ml
Sodium Sulfite . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200 g
Sodium bisulfite*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 g
Water to make . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 liter

Dilute 1:9 for use.

The Sodium Bisulphate is there to help cope with variations in water quality. If you use distilled water to make a Hypo-Clear/Wash Aid solution and use it 'one-shot' then you only need to use:

Water (125º F) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 750 ml
Sodium Sulfite . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22 g
Water to make . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 liter

Use at full strength and throw away after use.

Hope this helps - by the way, I have always found that Tetenal Lavaquick (which you use at 1:19) is a very reliable Hypo-Clear/Wash Aid that lasts for ages as stock solution.

Happy photography!
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Old 25th April 2011, 07:43 PM
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Reading Rubén's post he was specifically asking about sodium carbonate, not HCA or bisulphate.
I'm not sure that sod. carb is much used post processing today but I would hazard a guess that it was recommended to raise the print pH after acid fixing before selenium toning (toning was mentioned in the post) as direct selenium toner can deposit elemental selenium as a red/brown stain on the print in acid medium.
Today HCA is often used to prevent this as it is also alkaline but in addition has other beneficial properties greater than sod. carb. (I believe) when it comes to facilitating removal of thiosulphate from the print in washing.
Tim
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Old 25th April 2011, 10:46 PM
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David's post mentions "sulphate" and "bisulphate" (only once) incorrectly.

The carbonate wash is an older recommendation. It was still in Agfa's instructions for fibre paper until their demise.

The general consensus, based on lots of research by Kodak, is that sulphite is a very much better wash aid. The bisulphite adjusts the pH and is a refinement. The citrate and EDTA are further refinements and I have read that they improve the lasting qualities of the bath and deal with water vagaries.
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Old 26th April 2011, 07:03 AM
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Thank you for your answer! As you say it seems that this tecnique is an older recommendation. In fact, Tim, the text says that is speciallity recommended for copies that will be toned.
The book is "Enlarging" by C.I. Jacobson and L.A. Mannheim, from april 1974, fifth edition in spanish.

My question now is: Would be a good option, especially for larger prints that will be toned to selenium, fix-rinse-bath of carbonate for eliminate acid or better sulphite like says Stoky-wash-hipocleaning-and wash? Would be safer or would not be for nothing?

Thanks,

Rubén
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Old 26th April 2011, 08:37 AM
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Hi Rubén,

My method is to have a 'holding' tray of plain water where all of the prints sit after fixing. At the end of a printing session I then empty the 'holding' tray and add plain warm water, rotate the prints and then repeat. After this I put the prints in an archival print washer for 5 - 10 minutes (depends upon how long it takes me to set up for selenium toning). Then I take the prints out of the washer and put them in a tray with water at 20C. I then proceed to selenium tone with constant agitation (I use ADOX Selentoner at 1:20 simply because that is what FotoImpex stocks here in Berlin with 5ml of Tetenal Mirasol wetting agent added).

I have used 5 - 10 minutes washing before Selenium toning (with different brands of Selenium toner) for a very long time and I have never had any staining problems with Selenium toning.

Hope this helps.
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Old 26th April 2011, 09:22 AM
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Hi David,

I do more or less the same method, but the doubts are in big copies where process is not in common trays but it in long trays where you roll and unroll paper into chemical. In this process is more difficult for me to know if wash is correctly.

Rubén
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