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  #1  
Old 7th March 2022, 01:11 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Default Ammonium carbonate in lith process

I came across something on a page about lith printing (there is just so much to read!), that mentioned putting prints through a bath of 'Ammonium Carbonate', to give more vivid colours. That was all that was said and all I could find initially.

So after making some lith prints in the usual way, I tried soaking them in various dilutions of AC, of which I bought the crystalised version on ebay UK. No mention had been made of 1. The most awful repellent smell of ammonia when opening the packet and that a good filter mask is required when using this chemical and 2. At what dilution to use.

I finally tracked down some info on the Easy Lith page, along with the following link: https://www.processuk.net/Moersch_Li..._18788061.aspx

It seems that a 1% solution is used and the print is put into it directly after developing and before the stop bath and not as I had first done, which was after the development, stop and then fix! I now also read that it's best to use strong dilutions of lith developer at about 1 + 5 to 1 + 8, rather than the normal dilution at about 1 + 20, although the text says that some changes will happen with this dilution.

I've tried some various dilutions, but if anything it takes the lovely colour out of the prints, that have been done conventionally.

I could order some of Moersch's 'Omega' lith additive when next making an order, but as usual there's a big difference between the costs and I'm wondering if it is worth it based on a straight solution of just AC.

So, has anyone else tried AC or the Omega solution? If so what were you thoughts on the final prints?

Terry S
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Old 13th March 2022, 01:18 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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No one else tried Ammonium Carbonate in the lith process at all?

I'm not totally surprised if not, as I only found out about it by accident whilst reading on the web recently.

I'll pop across to the 'other' site and ask there, but I really expect some off the wall replies...

Terry S
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Old 13th March 2022, 01:41 PM
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Sorry, no experience from my end with any additives just yet!
I've only just used the Easy Lith developer up to now.
I did try selenium toner afterwards on a lith print once, and that took away just about all the colour as well...

When my current supply of Easy Lith is exhausted, I'm thinking of getting a "SE5 Master Kit" or "Omega Kit" to see what that brings.
I'm leaning towards the Master Kit so far, but I'll have to read in a bit more.
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Old 13th March 2022, 01:49 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Thanks Buzz.

The 'Omega' kit is what the Ammonium Carbonate mention is. Note the point about it's smell! On the EL site, it mentions that they have put it into a special bottle with a pipette in it, but it would be worth getting a respirator as well, as it really does smell, even at high dilutions.

I've still got some of the trial bottle of Easy Lith that I got to try and will probably buy a bigger bottle next time, along with some more paper, but I'll still be carrying on trying out various home mixed lith developers as well.

Terry S
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Old 13th March 2022, 02:19 PM
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I haven't read in enough to really know what I'm talking about unfortunately.
But, reading the link on the Moersch website you've posted, there are some hints about paper type, could this be what's going on with your prints?
They mention that the Omega part works well with warmtone (silver chloride) papers like Fomatone, but on other papers the effect on color is much smaller.

About Easy Lith vs their Master Kit, I've read that their Master Kit has a different developer with a much longer tray life than Easy Lith. That's what made me interested in that kit over the Easy Lith kit. Only one way to find out I guess...
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Old 13th March 2022, 05:02 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Terry, on a relevant but not particularly helpful note, I have often wondered what my response, if any, should be, in cases where I have no experience so can really add nothing

There is nothing worse than getting no responses but on the other hand, if all I or any member can say is: "Sorry but I can't help" does that do anything except demonstrate that I have read the starting post?

On balance I think that a response of some kind is probably useful if none of us know anything. It shows a kind of solidarity at least. Hopefully a situation where none of us know anything will be very but , yes, there is nothing worse than feeling abandoned

I wonder what Tim Rudman has to say about Ammonium Carbonate in his Lith Printing book?. That's the one I don't have and never will as long as sellers keep asking near or over a three figure sum for it

Mike
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Old 18th March 2022, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
I've tried some various dilutions, but if anything it takes the lovely colour out of the prints, that have been done conventionally.
If you are after more colour, you have to bring more light to the print.
Which also means that you then have to dilute more.

But in looking for the intensity of colour, I would prefer starting with some variations of light. Two, three stops, maybe 4 stops..

I am not sure what "vivid colours" means to you - an example of your not vivid prints could be helpful.

Here is a comparism of a (there preferred) less coloured print with a piece of a strong coloured print:

Click image for larger version

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Bad working papers could have advantage from redeveloping normal prints in lith developer - this is my preferred technique with Fomabrom.


Without enough basics of lith printing I wouldn't recommend additives which will make things more complicated.
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Old 19th March 2022, 08:12 PM
Molli Molli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
Terry, on a relevant but not particularly helpful note, I have often wondered what my response, if any, should be, in cases where I have no experience so can really add nothing

There is nothing worse than getting no responses but on the other hand, if all I or any member can say is: "Sorry but I can't help" does that do anything except demonstrate that I have read the starting post?

On balance I think that a response of some kind is probably useful if none of us know anything. It shows a kind of solidarity at least. Hopefully a situation where none of us know anything will be very but , yes, there is nothing worse than feeling abandoned

I wonder what Tim Rudman has to say about Ammonium Carbonate in his Lith Printing book?. That's the one I don't have and never will as long as sellers keep asking near or over a three figure sum for it

Mike
I made a point of re-reading Mr. Rudman's book on Lith Printing before taking a craic at it with a DIY developer recently and have no recollection of Ammonium Carbonate being mentioned at all. I'll re-check at a less awful hour of the day (I've just seen in 7am from the wrong side), but I'm sure I'd have noticed a "trick" involving a chemical I don't have that might have helped me. We had Fotospeed Lith available at my only "local-ish" supplier, but even that's no longer listed, hence my scratch mix Lith developer.

I got Mr. Rudman's book from your side of the world a few years back - possibly from one of you 😁 I COMPLETELY neglected to factor in the exchange rate; but even so, a great deal cheaper than his toning book!

Speaking of people I've interacted with online who may well be on this forum, Gavin Lyons via Twitter and then YouTube is the person responsible for me FINALLY attempting Lith Printing a few weeks ago, if he's about?
None of my papers worked, but playing mad scientist is always fun.

Sorry that I have nothing but waffle to add to the discussion. In case my late night/early morning babble hasn't made it clear, I'd be interested to hear of any success with the addition of Ammonium Carbonate. I only have Sodium Carbonate on hand. Adding in the variation of old, untested papers and a homemade developer, any help would, well, help.
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Old 19th March 2022, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molli View Post
None of my papers worked, but playing mad scientist is always fun.
Did you try redevelopment with this papers?

Tim Rudman is fine; in my opinion he makes the whole thing traceable if not easy.

On the other side there are good reasons to buy the next stage stuff from our druid, Mr. Moersch.
With Easy Lith and Fomatone Baryta I found slowing down the fiercely colours would be more pleasant to me.
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Old 20th March 2022, 12:59 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molli View Post
I made a point of re-reading Mr. Rudman's book on Lith Printing before taking a craic at it with a DIY developer recently and have no recollection of Ammonium Carbonate being mentioned at all. I'll re-check at a less awful hour of the day (I've just seen in 7am from the wrong side), but I'm sure I'd have noticed a "trick" involving a chemical I don't have that might have helped me. We had Fotospeed Lith available at my only "local-ish" supplier, but even that's no longer listed, hence my scratch mix Lith developer.

I got Mr. Rudman's book from your side of the world a few years back - possibly from one of you 😁 I COMPLETELY neglected to factor in the exchange rate; but even so, a great deal cheaper than his toning book!
Hi Molli, I hope that you've now had a good sleep and feel better for it.

The mention of Ammonium Carbonate is NOT mentioned in Tim Rudman's book, as I also looked upon first reading about this chemical recently. I only came across a mention of it in ONE LINE of text on the web, with no other info about it. Researching, the only real mention of it that I can find is on Moersch's website and retailers that sell his 'Omega' liquid. Reading between the lines, it seems only about a 1% solution is required and I managed to find the dry version of it available on eBay UK, at a good price. In both dry and solution, one really does need a filter respirator though, as it has the most awful ammonia smell. And yes, Tim's books have all gone up to ridiculous prices, but especially the 'Toning' book. Luckily, I bought all of mine years before this began to happen.

Anyway, after much reading, it appears that what it basically does is to produce some of the colours that one would normally get when using very weak lith developer, over a longer period of time. But, for impatient ones amongst us, you can get these colours quicker if one uses a dilution of lith developer at about 1+4 and not the usual 1+20 or more and then putting it into a bath of 1% AC, before the stop and then fixer solutions.

So basically you have a choice: 1. Wait a few extra minutes in a diluted lith dev bath to get the colours in the print or 2. Up the concentration of the lith dev bath to about 1+4 (= costs more, as you will use more lith developer!) and ALSO pay out for either a bottle of Omega, or get a packet of your own AC to make some.

I have tried both routes (slightly): I get lovely oranges on Foma FB paper in Easy lith @ 1:20 dilution, and when kept at about 28 to 30C, I get a lovely print after about 5 minutes. Before I read more, I then put a few prints into a 1% solution of AC, but all this did was to bleach out the colours, leaving a more gritty B/W print. (And yes, a lot of us mourned the loss of Fotospeed's lith developer and no similar formula is to be found on the internet. The other side of the coin is that it was a formaldehyde formula, which a lot of us now prefer NOT to use in making our own. But saying that, the few times that I have seen it mentioned in readily available formulas, users do say you do get a better result. The choice, again, is yours. )

And finally Molli, I am mostly using Easy Lith, as it guarantees me lith prints that I like, but I am also trying out various formulas from where ever I find them, but to date with little success. So, how did your scratch formula go, and if well, would you mind letting us know the formula?

Many thanks

Terry S
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