Removing the red window

[Richard Gould]

As regards the ensign selfix 820, if the shutter is working well with no obvious problems then yes, worth the money, the Express lens is the best of the tessar type lenses. I have 3 ensigns with the xpress lens including an 820. it is a bit of a beast in size and you can use it for 66 with built in flaps, The ensigns have perhaps the darkest of the red windows, but are capable of great results, they have become popular in recent years with the xpress lens so the price look right, as regards the removing of the red window, be careful with lighttrapping with felt, I know of others that have tried it and caused problems with the pressure plate pressing correctly on the film, if you want to try it then I suggest trying it without the felt at first, using black tape, if you have problems then try light trapping, but remember that the main reason is to dramaticly reduce the amount of light getting though, remember with the talk of ortho film, when a lot of these were made, including the franka and agfa you have, that ortho film was in decline and pan was on the upsurge, from all the main suppliers of the time (I am talking of the fifties), Ilford,adox, agfa. foma, ferrinia and too many others to mention were making the new modern panchromatic films, I started in the late fifties and it was all pan film, so forget about the film types, the main reason for the red window was to reduce the amount of light getting though, and if you look at things that way the reasoning behind what was a hangover from a previous age in camera design becomes plain, even folders with a means of counting without needing to use the red window, such as the super ikontas, still use a red window to set the first frame, good luck with your project, I certainly would not try it with any of the many folders I have and use, once you get used to red window it is not a problem. and the only time I tried it I ruined a film,
Richard

[Richard Gould]

Originally Posted by B&W Neil

I found out a few years ago that Fuji Across is the best film to use in these old cameras because it has a light outer backing paper with dark numbers / symbols, most other films have this the other way around. This arrangement is so much easier to see and you have to wonder why other film manufactures make life difficult for users of old cameras.

I wouldn't dare think about causing light leaks in any of my precious babies

Neil.

Hi Neil,
I have tried all the films over the years with my folders, Fuji film is pretty good, and Kodak has, or used to have the same arrangement of dark numbers on white, but as I get older and my eyes are not what they used to be I find that Foma and Rollei films, (They both use the same backing paper and arrangement, including the non licking sealer strip) of very boldly printed white numbers on very black paper easier, especialy with something like Ensign's that seem to have much darker red windows than most, Ilford might make nice films but for folders they are useless due to the very light grey print on white backing paper
Richard,

[B&W Neil]

Originally Posted by Richard Gould

Hi Neil,
I have tried all the films over the years with my folders, Fuji film is pretty good, and Kodak has, or used to have the same arrangement of dark numbers on white, but as I get older and my eyes are not what they used to be I find that Foma and Rollei films, (They both use the same backing paper and arrangement, including the non licking sealer strip) of very boldly printed white numbers on very black paper easier, especialy with something like Ensign's that seem to have much darker red windows than most, Ilford might make nice films but for folders they are useless due to the very light grey print on white backing paper
Richard,

Richard,

I am sure age / eyesight has a lot to do with it. Maybe we ought to give a 10 year old an old folder to see how easy they wind the film on

Neil.

[Svend]

Hi Neil - fair comment. The way I see it, is that I am adding light seals to these cameras where there were none before.
- hinge
- film door groove (Franka only; Agfa already has it)
- pressure plate / film window

That can only make them better, right?

Given that light already leaks around the sliding covers when closed, and the red plastic doesn't protect Pan film much, I can't see how I am causing any leaks. As far as I can see I'm making the cameras even more light-tight. If indeed the film fogs after I cut out the plastic, I will use black tape over the windows. But fear not, I will test it thoroughly before I put them under the knife

Richard, you raise a good point about film plate pressure and screwing that up with felt in behind. I intend to use very compressible light seal foam (on it's way from US Camera). This stuff is not dense and stiff, but very soft and compressible. With very light pressure you can squish it to paper-thinness. It's only 2mm thick uncompressed and 3mm wide, and if I apply it evenly all around the back of the plate, I should get even pressure all around. Excess pressure should not be an issue given its compressibility. The plate sits only 3mm off the door, so 2mm thickness should do the trick once the door is closed; compression should be 50%, I'm guessing.

Thanks for the insight into the Ensign. I may pass on this one. Even though it's close to home, it's an Ebay auction so I may not have a chance to inspect before buying. Not worth the risk and hassle given all the things that can be wrong with these old folders. Sounds like they are worth keeping an eye out for -- the lens sounds like a winner.

Svend

[Richard Gould]

Svend,
To be perfectly honest I can't see the point of using any form of light seal around the red window, the pressure plate pressing on the backing paper should be all the seal you need, any more is overkill im my experiance, putting any more will not make the least difference to the result. which is why I say try without first, I have been looking at some of my collection, and the pressure plates fit tight. a lot tighter than many ''modern'' cameras due to the fact that for the most part the plate is a little over size. and all to help with the red window,and keeping the light from pan film I personally don't think that you will make any more of an effective seal than is already there with the pressure plate. as regards a light seal around the camera door, again, felt will not work, I can tell you that from experiance, I sealed one of my folders with felt due to light leak, still leaking, tried foam and same problem, then I studied the problem, where light seals were used in these old cameras they used wool.I raided my wifes wool supplies and got some 4 ply, used it as a seal and it is still light tight today, most, however, don't use any seals but depend on light trapping. I can't see how a folder like the franka can leak from around the door. it is light trapped, it might leak from the hinge, but they all do,it's the nature of the beast, and in no way fogs the film, at least. all of mine have a slight leak from the hinge, and does not fog the film, and I use 400, without problem, so unless it fogs the film then don't worry about it, and if it does then I suggest you use thin wool, just ease it in. it is not stuck with glue, and try without making seals around the red window, it's a lot of work if you don't need it, and if you do make seals be very careful of the glue you use as a lot of standard glue will give fumes even when dry that will adversely affect film, I know as it has happened to me when I made a new red window for a camera with red film and Bostik,
Richard

[B&W Neil]

Originally Posted by SvendN

Hi Neil - fair comment. The way I see it, is that I am adding light seals to these cameras where there were none before.
- hinge
- film door groove (Franka only; Agfa already has it)
- pressure plate / film window

That can only make them better, right?

Given that light already leaks around the sliding covers when closed, and the red plastic doesn't protect Pan film much, I can't see how I am causing any leaks. As far as I can see I'm making the cameras even more light-tight. If indeed the film fogs after I cut out the plastic, I will use black tape over the windows. But fear not, I will test it thoroughly before I put them under the knife

Richard, you raise a good point about film plate pressure and screwing that up with felt in behind. I intend to use very compressible light seal foam (on it's way from US Camera). This stuff is not dense and stiff, but very soft and compressible. With very light pressure you can squish it to paper-thinness. It's only 2mm thick uncompressed and 3mm wide, and if I apply it evenly all around the back of the plate, I should get even pressure all around. Excess pressure should not be an issue given its compressibility. The plate sits only 3mm off the door, so 2mm thickness should do the trick once the door is closed; compression should be 50%, I'm guessing.

Thanks for the insight into the Ensign. I may pass on this one. Even though it's close to home, it's an Ebay auction so I may not have a chance to inspect before buying. Not worth the risk and hassle given all the things that can be wrong with these old folders. Sounds like they are worth keeping an eye out for -- the lens sounds like a winner.

Svend

Svend,

Another point you may like consider, with a nice oldie such as a Franka, is the resale value once it has been modified. I should think you would have a hard job convincing a Franka enthusiast the mod is an improvement.

Why not try this out first on a less desirable camera that nobody will miss should it end up in the trash can.


Neil.

[Richard Gould]

Originally Posted by B&W Neil

Svend,

Another point you may like consider, with a nice oldie such as a Franka, is the resale value once it has been modified. I should think you would have a hard job convincing a Franka enthusiast the mod is an improvement.

Why not try this out first on a less desirable camera that nobody will miss should it end up in the trash can.


Neil.

T
Completely agree Neil, I like to keep them as original as possible, If you ever try and sell a lovely old folder with out the red window and modified with light seals Ect the value will be nill The Franka is a rare and lovely camera, and the Agfa,s are very collectable these days. I saw one recently on a dealers site for £279, with the window removed and the camera modified you would be lucky to get a tenner for it, plus the red windows are there for a purpose, the makers wouldn't fit them for fun, and it is nothing to do with ortho film, certainly by the fifties pan film was bigger than ortho and folders were still being made until the mid fifties, I have them from mid to late 50's,
Ricard

[photomi7ch]

You do not need to use a film to test it's light tightness. cut a piece of printing paper to fit. place it where the film would sit close the back. Then shine a bright light where the window was for a few seconds. then process the bit of paper. I should add the paper need to be added in while in the darkroom

[Svend]

Richard, Neil.... Okay, okay.... (groans...shoulders hunched in defeat) You've talked me down. All those months of careful planning! Gone!

I feel like when I was 18, my parents trying to talk me out of that racy Honda 750.

Very convincing arguments guys. I guess its flashlight and reading glasses in my kit bag. (Mutters: "Damn it, I really didn't want to do that. And I REALLY hate those little red windows! Harumph....")

Seriously, all valid reasons for leaving well enough alone. Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

And I will try out TMY and TriX film to see if that improves things. I've not tried the latter, and the former only in 135. But I really like TMY and know how to make it behave. TriX should be similar to HP5, I'm guessing, so an easy transition all around from Ilford.

Cheers,
Svend

PS -- I did end up buying the Honda after all

[Richard Gould]

Originally Posted by SvendN

Richard, Neil.... Okay, okay.... (groans...shoulders hunched in defeat) You've talked me down. All those months of careful planning! Gone!

I feel like when I was 18, my parents trying to talk me out of that racy Honda 750.

Very convincing arguments guys. I guess its flashlight and reading glasses in my kit bag. (Mutters: "Damn it, I really didn't want to do that. And I REALLY hate those little red windows! Harumph....")

Seriously, all valid reasons for leaving well enough alone. Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

And I will try out TMY and TriX film to see if that improves things. I've not tried the latter, and the former only in 135. But I really like TMY and know how to make it behave. TriX should be similar to HP5, I'm guessing, so an easy transition all around from Ilford,

Cheers,
Svend

PS -- I did end up buying the Honda after all

In the end you won't regret it, I strugled at first with the red window, as I told you in the first thread I took it out and had trouble, and put it back, after a few weeks of regular use of my first folder (An Ensign selfix 16/20) it became second nature, an remember this is an Ensign, which has the darkest red window I know of, these days it is nothing to use it, one thing, be careful of tmy, there have been some reports of problems with the frame numbers showing on the negatives on dome of them, maybe best to try triX for the moment, I believe that Kodak corrected the problem by not printing nframe numbers on the backing paper, I use folders for around 70% of my MF photography, the rest being on TLR's a rolleiflex,rolleicord and a microcord 2. and I was a biker for many years, still lovethem, but my wife says no in Jersey, Islands too small and too dangerous, but in France, just 12 miles away and we go there often, I have a lovely Vincent Black prince, best superbike ever made from the fifties, still puts other biked behind me, and she rides pillion with me
Richard