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  #11  
Old 10th December 2012, 06:38 AM
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kevsNorthants kevsNorthants is offline
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Lostlabours,

Thank you for replying and explaining; it makes sense now I think... :-) 1:2 does sound like a good compromise between sharpness and grain; I can see why you'd like to reduce grain and increase sharpness. I might try 1:2 next time I use FP4 in 35mm.

Cheers, :-)
kevs
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  #12  
Old 17th December 2012, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostlabours View Post
Speed loss is more about the EI you need to shoot at to achieve a good long tnal range and retain good shadow detail.

Good examples are Tmax 100 and APX100 both of which I did Zone system tests with, to get similar results I shot the Tmax at 50EI and the APX100 at 100EI in 35mm, 120 & 5x4.
Ian
Did you use ID11/D76 for this tests ?
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  #13  
Old 18th December 2012, 09:08 AM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Did you use ID11/D76 for this tests ?
Initially but I switched to Rodinal, and for commercial work replenished Xtol, but the differeances between the films were the same.

Ian
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  #14  
Old 19th December 2012, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Lostlabours View Post
Initially but I switched to Rodinal, and for commercial work replenished Xtol, but the differeances between the films were the same.

Ian
Interesting. I am asking as TMX is "my" basic material and I am quite happy with EI 100 for it. I never use on it D76 or any other developer with too much sodium sulfite as in my opinion it is ripping out holes in the grain structure of that film and for that matter in Delta 100 to. However my experience is limited to 35mm only. I use rather Beutler for one bath system or Tmax Dev. and lately Polymax T for two bath system. APX100 in Xtol will be, I think, hard to beat by any film/dev combo (I don't use Xtol and now is no point to try), but TMX ib Tmax Dev. looks pretty smooth and creamy with very good shadows and good highlights.
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  #15  
Old 19th December 2012, 12:46 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Originally Posted by timor View Post
Interesting. I am asking as TMX is "my" basic material and I am quite happy with EI 100 for it. I never use on it D76 or any other developer with too much sodium sulfite as in my opinion it is ripping out holes in the grain structure of that film and for that matter in Delta 100 to. However my experience is limited to 35mm only. I use rather Beutler for one bath system or Tmax Dev. and lately Polymax T for two bath system. APX100 in Xtol will be, I think, hard to beat by any film/dev combo (I don't use Xtol and now is no point to try), but TMX ib Tmax Dev. looks pretty smooth and creamy with very good shadows and good highlights.
Kodak had to have the ASA testing sytem loosened before they could call Tmax films 100 & 400 ISO, in fact in the firts Tmax 100 datasheet Kodak recommended usint it at 50 EI for optimal results in terms of tonality (inc shadow detail) etc.

If you don't want shadow detail then 100 EI mught be fine but my own experience and John Sexton & Kodak's recommendation was to use it at 50.

Tmax 100 gives exceptionally fime grain in Rodinal and Xtol, as does APX100.

Ian
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  #16  
Old 19th December 2012, 04:03 PM
timor timor is offline
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Originally Posted by Lostlabours View Post
If you don't want shadow detail then 100 EI mught be fine but my own experience and John Sexton & Kodak's recommendation was to use it at 50.
Ian
I just said, that I am getting good shadow detail with EI 100. Yes, Mr. Sexton is using it at lower ISO values, but also he is using fine grain developers like D76 1+1 at 20 C and Tmax Dev 1+9 at 24 C. This high temperature makes me wonder why he needs to increase contrast at such a cost, but then it applies to sheet film only in his case. There maybe more factors than he is disclosing like his technique of establishing the exposure in the first place.
In any case the whole idea behind tabular grain is to not to use fine grain developers, it is totally unnecessary, TMX is fine grain by itself. In high content of sodium sulfite the lose of speed is assured. With films like APX it is less visible with more silver on the film so in the same fine grain developer TMX is bound to show bigger lose. All I am saying is for you to try something like Beautler developer on TMX, recommendation of Mr. Thornton.
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  #17  
Old 19th December 2012, 05:25 PM
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all discussions on film speed are meaningless without knowing the resulting contrast index ( effectively similar to stops range from black to white).

typically manufacturers and ISO standard use approx 8 stops range whereas zone system uses 10 stop range if you stick to the book.
By moving to a 10 stop range from an 8 stop range you will always lose about 50% of film speed (i.e 1 stop of speed) with the same developer which makes sense if you think of it as adding 1 stop below metered value and 1 stop above.

So when sexton says use film at 50 instead of 100 what are his reasons? Is it because his standard dev is tailored to standard zone system of 10 stop range. And is your dev truly tailored to a 10 stop range or is it closer to ISO speed? Without actually quoting your final Contrast Index (or gamma) we will never really know and discussions (arguments) become a black art of trying to interpret what people are really doing.

Also enlarger type, condensor or diffusion will make a difference over required contrast index and in turn that effects the resulting EI of your film. So differences will nearly always be found between two peoples interpretation of what the optimum EI will be. Its pointless arguing over it without all the data to hand. Its simply just poking around in the dark.

Last edited by Argentum; 19th December 2012 at 05:43 PM.
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  #18  
Old 19th December 2012, 05:55 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Catually you need to do your own tests, which is what I've always done. I want a full tonal range there's no arguement in that

Ian
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  #19  
Old 19th December 2012, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
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I want a full tonal range there's no arguement in that
want a bet? What does full tonal range mean?
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  #20  
Old 19th December 2012, 06:35 PM
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The full tonal range that you are going to find outdoors on a bright sunny day is naturally going to have a bigger range of brightness levels than can be achieved on a piece of printing paper. But I think what Ian means is that he wants an approximation, or a representation of this range in his prints, with differences in shadow values, and highlight values, clearly differentiated.

Alan
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