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  #11  
Old 11th September 2015, 06:39 AM
DaveP DaveP is offline
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If you don't pre-soak the. The antihalation layer gets washed off with the dev/stop/fix and final wash anyway.

I use a pre-rinse with E6 as the it solved a problem of evenness I was having attributed to dev splashing into the tank and splattering the dry film.

On the other hand, I prerinsed my first roll of Pan-F and this caused uneven blotchy skies. I get the impression that prerinsing less temperamental emulsions like HP5+ and FP4+ is ok. The idea of getting everything to the correct temperature is probably good in theory, especially if you're using a short dev time, but when I don't prerinse, which is most of the time now with b&w, I don't seem to have any problems.

My advice would be unless you've actually had a specific development problem that you are trying to resolve with a prerinse then I wouldn't bother.
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  #12  
Old 11th September 2015, 08:46 AM
JOReynolds JOReynolds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveP View Post
The idea of getting everything to the correct temperature is probably good in theory, especially if you're using a short dev time, but when I don't prerinse, which is most of the time now with b&w, I don't seem to have any problems.
It's the short, blood-temperature dev that causes unevenness problems for home processing.
Before processing C41, I did a dry run and measured the temperature on pouring out a tankful of tempered water (stainless-steel spirals in a stainless-steel tank). I don't remember the temperature drop but I gave an extra 15sec dev and everything was fine.
As Dave P advises, I never pre-rinse 120 Delta 100 in Rodinal 1:50 at around 20...24°C (Ilford adjustment table) and I am always pleased with the result.

Last edited by JOReynolds; 11th September 2015 at 08:50 AM.
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  #13  
Old 11th September 2015, 08:49 AM
davidgc davidgc is offline
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I have had blotchiness in the past but not film after film after film that has made me reconsider my technique. I will bear prerinsing in mind should it happen again.
Thanks all.
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  #14  
Old 11th September 2015, 07:41 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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If I recall what Ilford has said on another forum i think it was that it thinks that a pre-soak doesn't add anything but equally it does no harm

Mike
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  #15  
Old 11th September 2015, 09:39 PM
DaveP DaveP is offline
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Just dug out some comments I have on an email exchange between me and Harman's tech support a couple of years back when I had some odd effects with Pan-F attributed to prerinsing:

"I acknowledge your saying you have always presoaked with FP4+ and attained good results - despite you also acknowledging our advice to not presoak. It is though more likely/more lucky that you've had no problems with FP4+ because we certainly do encounter problems - and I am also aware of other users who presoak also have problems of mottle/increased grain size and unevenness when they do pre-soak.
Likewise, I have known people presoak our films for years (perhaps as you with FP4+) - and have no problems. Or people who presoak for years with no problems - and then all of a sudden, doing the same procedures - they suddenly have a batch/film thats problematic/mottley/uneven. "

They also said that as colour film is developed at a much higher temp they are robust and so are more or less immune to any problems with prerinsing.
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  #16  
Old 12th September 2015, 07:43 AM
davidgc davidgc is offline
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DaveP, thanks for this.

Well, that clears it all up then !

David
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  #17  
Old 12th September 2015, 08:22 AM
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dsallen dsallen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidgc View Post
DaveP, thanks for this.

Well, that clears it all up then !

David
Not really, Simon R. Galley from Ilford has posted often on this matter and states Harman's point of view that a pre-wash/rinse is not necessary. However, he has also stated that it should not cause any problems:

Quote:
We have seen issues based on very extended pre-soak ( we do not recommend any ILFORD Film should need or require a pre-soak, but as I have said a normal pre-soak should not affect any performance characteristics of any ILFORD film ).

ILFORD Photo do not recommend Pre-soaking any of our emulsions as we do not believe it to be advantageous or required in any way ... but 2-3 minutes even in super hard water should not have any effect on the film whatsoever.

ILFORD Photo do not believe any advantage or benefit is gained by pre-soaking modern emulsions and we therefore do not advise or recommend that it is done.

But, if a customer chooses to do so as part of his processing discipline it should not affect the processing performance of any ILFORD film.

The 3 most common processing issues we have sent to us or referred to us regarding our films are

A ) Agitation

B ) Extended ( stand ) developing regimes

C ) Issues related to 'self manufactured developers or chemicals

If you do pre-soak any ILFORD film in any format it should have no detrimental effect on that film whatsoever, we don't say don't do it, we say you don't need to do it.

We actually have never recommended pre-soaking of any of our film products, but it does not matter as it would not cause any issues.
As I stated earlier I have always used a pre-soak for all processing with no ill effects. Furthermore, I have seen hundreds of times the use of a pre-soak solving film processing problems.

Bests,

David.
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  #18  
Old 12th September 2015, 09:51 AM
DaveP DaveP is offline
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What Simon says is clearly at odds with what the tech people say. Given they are the ones dealing with customer enquiries day in day out I'd be inclined to believe what the tech folk say.
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  #19  
Old 12th September 2015, 12:48 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveP View Post
What Simon says is clearly at odds with what the tech people say. Given they are the ones dealing with customer enquiries day in day out I'd be inclined to believe what the tech folk say.
Given that Simon Galley reports on APUG, given that the U.S. is by far its most important market,given that the "pre-soak issue always arouses controversy and finally given that Simon Galley has to try to be both honest and diplomatic in order to offend no-one I'd imagine that his statement was carefully considered with full consultation with the tech people. I'd imagine we can accept his statement as the Ilford position. It may of course be the "new" Ilford position or it may be that the tech person who made his/her statement felt he/she had to give his/her own conclusions

There may be differences of opinion within Ilford's tech dept as well but on balance enough of them or at least the head of the tech dept gave Simon Galley the OK to make the statement he did

Mike
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  #20  
Old 12th September 2015, 01:14 PM
DaveP DaveP is offline
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Obviously we can all make our minds up who to listen to. Personally I'll listen to the tech folk not the PR guy. Especially since the tech's candid pronouncement of seeing plenty of issues caused by prerinsing would be a frankly bizarre thing to make up if it wasn't true.
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