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  #1  
Old 2nd October 2008, 06:20 AM
Dave miller Dave miller is offline
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Default Pre-soak

There are those that do, and those that don't. Care to share your perceived pros, and cons of your method?

As a confirmed pre-soaker I just like to get rid of the mucky stuff (anti halation dye?) before I put the developer in.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 10:01 AM
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Trevor Crone Trevor Crone is offline
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I with you on this one Dave. The only one time I didn't pre-soak in water before development I got 'air-bells' (bubbles), small dark spots on the film.

Although I read some time ago, soon after Ilford released Delta 100, that the pre-soaking of this film was not recommended because of an incorporated wetting agent. However I chose to ignore this advice and decided to continue to pre-soak, never had a problem with this film or the 400 version.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 10:21 AM
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I'm one of the don't pre-soak people. Just wasn't taught to do it when I started processing so have never done it. Do you have to compensate time as the developer is more dilute at the start or does it not matter?

Dave - As you said you are now using Prescysol is it a requirement of that developer or would you use it with say Rodinal or ID11?

Trevor - I thought that air-bells gave clear spots on film where it was not developed and the fix removed the undeveloped emulsion. I thought the dark spots were on the prints.

As you guys think it worthwhile I will try it on my next films. The last large format films I processed had clear spots and I put this down to a dodgy film, Fomapan 100. I was processing in a Jobo CPE2 with constant agitation which I would have thought would dispel any bubbles. The developer was Perceptol 1 + 2.

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Old 2nd October 2008, 11:23 AM
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Ah...Bill you spotted the deliberate mistake Thank you, I should have said clear spots on film which print as dark spots. Another senior moment
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Old 2nd October 2008, 11:54 AM
Dave miller Dave miller is offline
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I’m not sure that it matters which method is used. Consistency must be the overriding key to the developing process I think. The pre-soak will help by equalising the temperature, assuming that is that it was stabilised to the same temperature as the developer to start with. I imagine that as Trevor suggests, it will also greatly reduce the chance of air-bells forming.

The residual water left after the pre-soak must dilute the developer by a small amount, but how much this will effect the process is hard to say. I’m sure the agitation method employed will be a far greater factor than water retention on the finished negative.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 12:33 PM
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The main reason to pre-soak is indeed to prevent formation of air bells on the film surface. The removal of the anti-halation dye from 120 films incorporating the newer silver technology (Delta 400, T-Max etc).
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Old 2nd October 2008, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
The residual water left after the pre-soak must dilute the developer by a small amount, but how much this will effect the process is hard to say. I’m sure the agitation method employed will be a far greater factor than water retention on the finished negative.
Interesting point you've raised Dave, certainly worth carrying out a side by side test. Develop one film/sheet with a pre-soak and one without, keeping every thing else the same to see if there's a notable difference with regard to negative density.

The other point you've mentioned with regard to temperature. I find the pre-soak applied at the same temperature as the developer is a useful aid in maintaining consistency.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 01:53 PM
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I always pre-soak and have never had an air bell from the day I started. Also, to increase the chance of not getting air bells, instead of just "Gently Tapping" the tank on the work surface, as always seems to be suggested, I hold the tank squarely at the bottom and give four very firm slams on to the work surface, followed by one final hard slam.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 02:18 PM
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The only time I would normally use a presoak is when a film / dev combination has a very short development time. In that case, the fill time will be a larger percentage of the total time and therefore what gets covered in the tank first gets a siginificantly longer dev time. Using a presoak will slow down the development start up and smooth out that potential problem.
Combiplan tanks fill slowly and so a presoak when short dev times are being used with that tank would definitely be a help. But for most film / dev combinations it should not be necessary unless speciifically recommended to stop a known problem.
I have never experienced air bell problems. Ilford films have a wetting agent specifically designed to allow fast take up of developer into the film.
Look at this way. With no presoak the only thing that will get absorbed into the gelatin is developer which if it has been properly mixed, will have an even effect on the film. If you use a presoak, then the film is full of water so then the flow pattern of the developer over the film surface becomes important as it has to wash out the water to get into the gelatin. It will be diluted by that water. Is that as likely to be as even as using no presoak? Maybe, maybe not. It just adds another variable to go wrong and IMO is not genrally required.
I think if you were to read all that has been written on the subject and where it was used, you will find that mostly it is used when you want soft development or to slow down development.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 03:18 PM
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Another time where it could have a benefit is on Jobo type processors.
The dev may well require less developer than would cover the film when the tank is vertical. So you put developer in which starts development on the bottom half of the film but then you have to put down what you have poured the developer from, maybe put a top on the dev tank and take the dev tank and put it on the processor. Then you have to switch the processor on. By the time you have done that, you would already have uneven development marks on the film. So in that case, a presoak is probably a good idea. I suspect that is one reason why Peter says you should use it with Prescysol on jobo processors.
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