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  #21  
Old 12th June 2019, 11:32 AM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Washing soda? As in Arm and Hammer stuff? For print washing, instead of hypo clearing agent? Interesting! Never heard of that. Where can I learn more about this? Seems like a great idea.
That's the stuff Svend! Cheap and easy to find.

I'm sure if you do a search for it both on here and google, you should be able to find posts about it. These should include one started by myself, when I discovered that at the right amount when added to print developer, boosted those dark grey blacks that one often gets, especially on older papers.

I think I know where one of the first books that I got on photography is, which mentions it, (which was my prize for being best of year in maths in secondary school, if I remember correctly ) and if I do find it I'll see if I can provide a quote or two.

Terry S
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  #22  
Old 12th June 2019, 12:35 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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Good one Terry. I will do a search here and on the wider web to see if I can find something. I've heard of dosing print developer with bromide, I think, to give deeper blacks, but never washing soda. I suppose it's the carbonate in the soda that does it...correct? Does it only work with carbonate-based developers?

I definitely have not heard of using soda as a washing aid. I will check further into that. Thanks!
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  #23  
Old 12th June 2019, 07:08 PM
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My very limited understanding is that it is the sulphite that acts on the thiosulphate in the fixer to make it much more soluble. Washing soda (sodium carbonate) does not contain sulphites. However, it probably helps somewhat in hard-water areas.

I would imagine that sodium carbonate is far cheaper than sodium sulphite so if it was as effective, one might expect the manufacturers to use it, but they don't, which makes me pause for caution.

Any chemists in the house?
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  #24  
Old 13th June 2019, 12:58 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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I'm no chemist, Bob, but this thread that I found on Photrio is interesting, debating the merits of carbonate vs. sulphite wash aids. Our own Ian Grant took part in this lively discussion...

https://www.photrio.com/forum/thread...-agent.136422/

As for which brew I will use as a wash aid, it certainly won't be based on price. My local shop sells Kodak HCA at C$10 to make 5 gallons...cheap enough not to sweat it. But Terry's suggestion to use washing soda in the developer seems to be right on -- I checked the Darkroom Cookbook, and indeed they recommend dosing the developer to give more contrast and deeper blacks. Great suggestion - thanks Terry!
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Last edited by Svend; 13th June 2019 at 01:02 PM.
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  #25  
Old 14th June 2019, 12:55 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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As for which brew I will use as a wash aid, it certainly won't be based on price. My local shop sells Kodak HCA at C$10 to make 5 gallons...cheap enough not to sweat it. But Terry's suggestion to use washing soda in the developer seems to be right on -- I checked the Darkroom Cookbook, and indeed they recommend dosing the developer to give more contrast and deeper blacks. Great suggestion - thanks Terry!
No probs Svend! But can you tell me on which page you found that in, as my reference was found in one of the Tim Rudman printing books.

It's been interesting reading both of the set of posts on this forum and the one linked to on (now) Photrio. And not being a chemist, the posts have been written in layman's terms and all make sense to me!

I too don't make decisions easily and if one product works better than another and can be proved, I'll quite happily use it.

Also, when I first started buying chemicals for the darkroom, the internet and ebay etc didn't even exist, so I had to buy the chemicals from photographic stores, at what I now know, are inflated prices when compared to online. And now that I know that the prices of the two chemicals are now comparable, I'll probably stick with the washing soda for adding to the developer and sodium sulfite for a hypo clearing bath.

Also mention by me earlier, here is what I've found in an old book of formulas, which was originally published in 1950, with my copy being a new addition in 1976. The book is called 'The Complete Art of Printing & Enlarging by O.R.Croy.'

The quote is from page 241, under the heading of 'NEUTRALISING BATH', where it gives a formula of Sodium Carbonate 10 or 25 grams, (depending upon which one is used) of which is added to one litre of water. It says that prints should be immersed for 10 minutes before washing.

I believe this is why I originally started using washing soda as a wash agent, although I probably also read it in the instructions supplied with Agfa papers around about the same period, as mentioned previously.

The book is a great reference book of formulas though, and it appealed to my teenage chemist persona. It lists formulas which are probably not now recommended (to teenagers at least), with the likes of various luminous paint formulas being listed. Surprisingly though are how many of the ingredients are available now on ebay, eg Barium, Lithium and Strontium carbonates. I don't know what they are but they just sound deadly!!! At the time my only supplier was Boots the chemist who used to stock and dispense a huge list of chemicals over the counter to me at their pharmacist counter. This book and the one I have on outdated 'organic' garden practices are also an interesting read, with suggestions of numerous cigarette butts being seeped in water, to make an effective insecticide. Lovely, that's bound to make the fruit and veg taste nicer, whilst giving everyone, including non-smokers, a good hit of nicotine!

Terry S
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  #26  
Old 14th June 2019, 01:43 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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No probs Svend! But can you tell me on which page you found that in, as my reference was found in one of the Tim Rudman printing books.
Hi Terry,

The reference to adding extra carbonate to print developers is on p. 76 of the Darkroom Cookbook. I have the 4th edition; it's in the chapter on print developers, in case the page no. doesn't line up with your copy.

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Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
Also, when I first started buying chemicals for the darkroom, the internet and ebay etc didn't even exist, so I had to buy the chemicals from photographic stores, at what I now know, are inflated prices when compared to online. And now that I know that the prices of the two chemicals are now comparable, I'll probably stick with the washing soda for adding to the developer and sodium sulfite for a hypo clearing bath.
Sounds good Terry. At the low price of HCA here (and hopefully also where you are), there doesn't seem much sense fussing around with soda. Stick with the tried and true.

As a side note to your comment on chemical prices, I am happy to see prices on film and chems here in Toronto now matching or bettering those of the big NYC online retailers (B+H, Adorama, etc.). Whether this has something to do with higher volumes allowing the shops here to offer lower prices, or just being forced to compete, I'm not sure. But I like it, and I am buying almost everything locally now (a shout-out to Downtown Camera for continuing to support us film users!...great place!).

Funny comments you make on people playing with esoteric and possibly dangerous substances. I wonder how many explosions, house fires, and family pet poisonings happened in the '60s by kids playing with their chemistry set in the basement? "Let's see if we can make Rover turn green! ....Here boy! Drink this copper sulphate..."
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