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  #71  
Old 21st May 2022, 09:54 PM
Stocky Stocky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W Neil View Post

....Even if you were a tad sloppy with you HC110 mixing it would soon get 'mixed' when you do your agitation routine at the beginning of the development.

Neil.
You would think so. But I have read from time to time that the initial minute or so of development is very important for uniformity.
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  #72  
Old 22nd May 2022, 08:51 AM
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B&W Neil B&W Neil is offline
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Originally Posted by Stocky View Post
You would think so. But I have read from time to time that the initial minute or so of development is very important for uniformity.
I am not advocting 'sloppy' but if happened you would probably get away with it .


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  #73  
Old 27th May 2022, 09:09 AM
loganca loganca is offline
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Quick follow-up in case anyone still cares

I decided to develop a roll using Ilford's DD-X to take HC-110 out of the equation. It came out fine, no streaks! But I was still skeptical and thought maybe I just got lucky. So I developed another roll in DD-X and - ugh - streaks again. They are somewhat different than the ones I had before, but they are there nonetheless.

I should note that I used Ilford's suggested agitation method, which is 4 inversions during the first 10 seconds of development followed by 4 inversions during the first 10 seconds of each subsequent minute until development is complete. Development time was 6.5 minutes which is Ilford's recommendation for Tri-X 400 exposed at EI 200.

The first frame on the roll shows a high-density band at least part of the way down the middle of the frame:



A few of the following frames show some high-density streaks across the sky:



And yet some frames look perfectly fine:



For the record, I've been using the Jobo 1520 tank and 1501 reels for these last few rolls. I've used two reels in the tank with only the bottom reel loaded with film, and I've used 500ml of chemistry in the tank which leaves room at the top of the tank for agitating the liquid.

Once again, I'm at a loss to explain what's going on. Using DD-X instead of HC-110 was an attempt to eliminate the possibility of insufficient mixing since the DD-X concentrate has a much thinner consistency - almost like water. And although I got one good roll out of it, I'm once again experiencing streaking.

I'm grasping at straws here, but one thing that came to mind is that I've been pulling out the leader of my film by inserting a scrap piece of film with a bit of double-sided tape attached through the canister opening. This sometimes takes several attempts and I'm wondering if there's some possibility that I'm introducing a light leak into the canister during the process. I know it's unlikely and it's common for people to use film retrievers to pull out the leader of film, and I haven't heard of light leaks resulting from this. But I'm at a loss to come up with any better explanation.

I guess sub-optimal agitation is still a possibility, despite the fact that I'm following the manufacturer's recommendations to the letter. Perhaps trying continuous agitation for the first 30 seconds (as has been suggested earlier) would be worth trying. I'm also almost desperate enough to try rotary agitation with the Jobo tank to see if that works out any better.

If you've read this far without falling asleep, thanks for listening.
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  #74  
Old 27th May 2022, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by loganca View Post
Quick follow-up in case anyone still cares

I'm grasping at straws here, but one thing that came to mind is that I've been pulling out the leader of my film by inserting a scrap piece of film with a bit of double-sided tape attached through the canister opening. This sometimes takes several attempts and I'm wondering if there's some possibility that I'm introducing a light leak into the canister during the process. I know it's unlikely and it's common for people to use film retrievers to pull out the leader of film, and I haven't heard of light leaks resulting from this. But I'm at a loss to come up with any better explanation.
Naturally, we're all scratching our heads and sitting on the edge of our seats!

This is the first time you've mentioned this procedure and it sounds suspect to me and definitely needs to be ruled out of the equation. It's certainly not a standard operational procedure and it wouldn't surprise me if it were to be the culprit.

Why not just take off one of the end caps?

And just for clarity, you're not bulk loading film or re-using canisters?
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  #75  
Old 27th May 2022, 09:48 AM
loganca loganca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyNL View Post
Naturally, we're all scratching our heads and sitting on the edge of our seats!


Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyNL View Post
Why not just take off one of the end caps?
I've been pulling out the leader this way so that I can trim it in daylight, since I found it a bit difficult to do in the dark. I guess I hadn't really thought much about it since I've seen many people do this in order to leave the excess film in the canister while loading it onto the reel. I don't think I've done this for every roll that has shown streaks so I'm not sure that's the cause. But I will stop this practice and see if that improves things.

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And just for clarity, you're not bulk loading film or re-using canisters?
No, I'm not.

Last edited by loganca; 27th May 2022 at 09:56 AM.
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  #76  
Old 27th May 2022, 12:05 PM
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Reginald S Reginald S is offline
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The good messages are:

- Your desperation is great but you are willing to change your strategies instead of giving up .

- You have seen for now that the HC110 can't be guilty by himself / his dilution/his age/his colour.


The problems should be within the context of your techniques.

I don't know if somebody had said it before:
Changing the techniqes, let's say bringing the film to the developer instead of bringing the developer to the film could be worth a try :-)
If not using the same fill-in technique (rays) of the developer, trying rotation next may also be good.

I have no great experience in developing with reels, but filling the Jobo with two reels but only with a small stripe of film sounds like possibly making some uneven stream to the liquid?

What about developing whole filmstripes without pulling them with dubious techniques out of the container?

Another idea:
Under certain circumstances pulling the film too fast off the container could cause lightings (electrostatic) which may result in light stripes rectangular to the film.

Last edited by Reginald S; 27th May 2022 at 12:10 PM.
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  #77  
Old 27th May 2022, 12:13 PM
Michael Michael is offline
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In post 25 of this thread, Jonathan Reynolds referred to back-winding. That hasn't figured in subsequent posts as much as I think it should have. It is essential when using Hewes spirals and something I also do whenever using Jobo equipment. It struck me at the time as well worth considering as a factor in this problem.
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  #78  
Old 27th May 2022, 12:36 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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loganca, if using Ilford's agitation regime is a cause or even a contributory factor to the problem then we, including Ilford, are in deep trouble. I just cannot see how this can be having any deleterious effect.

I have always used a film retriever without problems and in effect what you do mimics the film retriever. In my case the film retriever inserts two "leaders" to withdraw the film into the cassette which you'd think might also allow light to enter but it doesn't or it hasn't up to now in my case and I have been retrieving leaders like this for about 15 years

I suppose it might be your strip of film and the double sided tape that might be at fault. How much thicker is this than a retriever's 2 strips of film?

As has been said, it's worth trying to prise off the end cap and extract the film that way as this then eliminates your retrieval method being the cause

Is it only the very "early" frames that exhibit the problem or at the end? Might the tank have a minute crack in its sides which the tank lid then stresses on attachment. If that were to be the case then you might expect the end of the film i.e. the last to be loaded to be effected by a tiny crack in the tank's walls

2 possible options: Try pouring the developer into the tank prior to loading, load the film and place into tank and do everything in the dark until say 30 secs into the fixing part

That way you might eliminate light leaks

Second option: Try and find a fellow home processor to whom you can send a film to see if that person gets exactly the same problem

Mike
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  #79  
Old 27th May 2022, 04:31 PM
loganca loganca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald S View Post
The good messages are:

- Your desperation is great but you are willing to change your strategies instead of giving up .
I have to admit, I am slowly losing my resolve to continue investigating the source of this issue. I'd love to get back to thinking about photography rather than the mechanics of film developing. But I'm stubborn so I'll probably soldier on a bit longer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald S View Post
- You have seen for now that the HC110 can't be guilty by himself / his dilution/his age/his colour.
Yes, I think I can say that HC-110 itself is not the source of these issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald S View Post
I don't know if somebody had said it before:
Changing the techniqes, let's say bringing the film to the developer instead of bringing the developer to the film could be worth a try :-)
Yes, that has been suggested before. I'm just not sure how I can practically do that with my current setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald S View Post
I have no great experience in developing with reels, but filling the Jobo with two reels but only with a small stripe of film sounds like possibly making some uneven stream to the liquid?
It seems pretty common to develop in a two-reel tank with both reels inserted and a full tank of chemistry - at least with steel tanks. In the case of the Jobo, the reels are fixed in position by the center 'core' so they wouldn't slide around in the tank during inversion if a second reel is not inserted. I got into the habit of using the second reel with steel tanks/reels that would allow a single reel to move up and down in the tank during inversion, which I understand could cause its own set of issues. But the tank is meant to hold two reels so I don't see how the second empty reel could be the source of this problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald S View Post
What about developing whole filmstripes without pulling them with dubious techniques out of the container?
I assume you're referring to my leader pulling technique. I've done so many experiments I've started to lose track, but I'm quite sure I've developed one or more rolls without pulling the leader out first, but instead opening the container with an opener and lifting out the spool. I believe I experienced these streaks in that case too, but I might try again to be sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reginald S View Post
Another idea:
Under certain circumstances pulling the film too fast off the container could cause lightings (electrostatic) which may result in light stripes rectangular to the film.
That's something I hadn't considered. I don't think I pull the film out too quickly, but I can certainly be more careful to go slow next time.
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  #80  
Old 27th May 2022, 04:36 PM
loganca loganca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
loganca, if using Ilford's agitation regime is a cause or even a contributory factor to the problem then we, including Ilford, are in deep trouble. I just cannot see how this can be having any deleterious effect.
Agreed, that's why I've more or less discounted that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
I suppose it might be your strip of film and the double sided tape that might be at fault. How much thicker is this than a retriever's 2 strips of film?
I don't own a retriever so I can't compare them. But the tape is extremely thin and barely noticeable on the film strip. It slides into the felt-lined opening easily so I don't think it's that thick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
As has been said, it's worth trying to prise off the end cap and extract the film that way as this then eliminates your retrieval method being the cause
I've done it that way too and I don't think it made a difference. But I'm losing track of what I've tried and in what combinations. I need to start taking notes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
Is it only the very "early" frames that exhibit the problem or at the end? Might the tank have a minute crack in its sides which the tank lid then stresses on attachment. If that were to be the case then you might expect the end of the film i.e. the last to be loaded to be effected by a tiny crack in the tank's walls
It's not always the early frames, no. I've tried now with two different steel tanks as well as the plastic Jobo tank, so I don't think a crack in the tank is the cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
Try pouring the developer into the tank prior to loading, load the film and place into tank and do everything in the dark until say 30 secs into the fixing part
I'm not sure it will be possible for me to do this with my current setup. But I'll see if I can find a way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
Try and find a fellow home processor to whom you can send a film to see if that person gets exactly the same problem
I haven't done that, but I have a used a commercial lab and the negatives did not show this problem.
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