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Old 4th October 2018, 06:54 AM
MattPitts MattPitts is offline
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Default Over exposing Ilford HP5+

Hi Guys,

I've been shooting HP5+ at box speed with acceptable results. I recently read an article suggesting overexposing b+w http://www.johnnypatience.com/the-zone-system-is-dead/

I'm planning to do this soon, but interested to know if people have any advice for shooting this film? at lower ISO?

Also so when I develop the film shoot at say 200 iso i'm not sure about the development times? Any advice would be appreciated. thanks Matt
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Old 4th October 2018, 07:24 AM
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MartyNL MartyNL is offline
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As a general starting point the massive dev chart is a good place to go.

https://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?mobile


https://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?web
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Old 4th October 2018, 07:30 AM
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You might find this helpful too to see other people’s experiences and examples.

https://filmdev.org/

https://filmdev.org/recipe/finder
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Old 4th October 2018, 08:03 AM
ianbarber ianbarber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPitts View Post
Hi Guys,

I've been shooting HP5+ at box speed with acceptable results. I recently read an article suggesting overexposing b+w http://www.johnnypatience.com/the-zone-system-is-dead/

I'm planning to do this soon, but interested to know if people have any advice for shooting this film? at lower ISO?

Also so when I develop the film shoot at say 200 iso i'm not sure about the development times? Any advice would be appreciated. thanks Matt
I think it's more a case of finding the right balance for how the shadows with detail are appearing on the film. Different factors can change this such as how you mater the scene, what kind of meter you are using etc etc.

Rating the film at ISO 200 is going to move the shadow information further up the curve and off the toe. The film's latitude should be able to cope with the higher values also been pushed further up the curve.

If you are getting negatives which are just on the edge of shadow density, try reducing the ISO to 320 and then down to 200 to see which render the best results.

With regards to development, unless you are finding the negatives very dense and difficult to print, then I would just develop for ISO 400, of course, different developers may give slight variations in results.
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Old 4th October 2018, 09:46 AM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
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Hello Matt, welcome to the forum.
I've just taken a quick look at the johnnypatience article you mentioned, and if I were you I wouldn't take much notice of it. He condemns the Zone System yet only seems to have a vague idea of how it works. He seems to be advocating both significant over exposure and overdevelopment, but doesn't give actual details, so his "over-development" might actually be someone else's normal development. He also says that he doesn't use a meter any more, but guesses the exposure. Mmmmm…..

Ilford spent a lot of money on getting things right. They give a speed for HP5+ of 400 ISO. And they give a development time for ID11 at a dilution of 1+1 of 13 minutes at 20 degrees C. But it is important to understand that these recommendations are for "Normal" lighting. Most photographers would take this to be a fairly bright day but with no sun, and an average subject. HP5 exposed at 400 in these conditions and developed as above will yield "normal" negatives. These will have shadow detail, the highlights won't be too dense, and they should print in the darkroom without much trouble or messing around on a "normal" filter grade, i.e. 2. 2.5 or 3. They will also scan well.

But what happens on a sunny day? The contrast level goes up, subject highlights will be brighter, and if you expose and develop HP5 as above you end up with negatives that are much harder to print because the highlights will be too dense.

To way to counteract this to give reduced development. Instead of using ID11 at 1+1 for 13 minutes, I use it at the more dilute 1+2 for 13 minutes. This reduced development stops the highlights getting too dense. They come down in value and become much easier to manage. But this leads to a problem. The mid-tones come down a bit as well, and end up looking too dark in the finished print. So you counteract this at the taking stage by giving more exposure, i.e. rate the film at 200 to give an extra stop of exposure. This boosts the mid-tones. The mid-tones and the highlights are overexposed, in effect, but reduced development brings them down to where you want them. This is what is meant by the term "Overexpose and Underdevelop". It is actually correct exposure and correct development for negatives that were made in contrasty light, because it ensures they will print easily on grade 2 or 3 I the darkroom. This is classic Zone System practice, as explained by Ansel Adams a long time ago.


Alan
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Old 4th October 2018, 10:51 AM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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If I were to sum up the "Patience Article" in a word it would be sensationalist. Like Alan I have major reservations about that article's ability to tell you anything useful.

There are proper processes for "speed testing your use of the film" i.e. how you meter and expose your frames - things that with others meters and cameras might produce slightly different results. It is those elements that might produce a result whereby your film speed and development differ from Ilford's

As a "quick and dirty" experiment, as the saying goes, try exposing the same scene consecutively at 400;320 and 200. Develop as per Ilfords instructions then see which frame has produced the best result in your eyes

While you haven't adjusted the development time yet, this should give you a good indication of whether the shadow detail has improved - to your liking. If the highlights are still OK then maybe your personal speed is 320 with normal i.e. Ilford development time. If the midtones and especially the highlight have a tendency to be "blown" i.e. too bright such as no features on a white jumper which has features then consider maybe a 10% drop in development time and go from there.

Having said all of the above, my experience is that with HP5+ box speed of 400 and Ilford development has always given me good negatives. At our latitude in the U.K. it takes exceptional circumstances to make compensation for very deep shadows and brilliant whites necessary. The Greek islands in high summer with whitewashed buildings and narrow streets, heavily in shadow, might be different

Mike
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Old 4th October 2018, 11:03 AM
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Hi Matt,

I agree with everything the others have said. HP5 has a lot of exposure latitude, and is a very versatile and forgiving film. It responds well to different developers -- e.g. finer grain and softer contrast in Perceptol @1+1 vs. ID-11 @1+1. That dilute Perceptol also does a great job of controlling highlight contrast, which allows for a bit of overexposure to bring out the shadows. In fact, this combination is one of my favourites: HP5 in Perceptol @1+1. I've shot this in bright July midday sun and had perfectly printable negs.

FYI, I rate it at 320 and develop normally in Perceptol 1+1. This gives me nice punchy negs with lovely tonal range, esp. the mid- and lower-mid-tones. As noted, Perceptol is rather soft-working, so can render the negs as all-greys in some circumstances. For this reason I like to use it only at 1+1, not 1+3 which I find is too soft for my taste.

OTOH, using ID-11 @1+1 gives more contrast, coarser grain, but very sharp and crisp looking negs. This look suits some scenes better (urban street stuff, moody landscapes, etc.). So depending on what you're after, HP5 can do well for you just by changing developers. Great film!

Hope this helps.

Svend

PS -- I use roll films only (mostly 120; some 135), and often have quite a variety of lighting and contrast conditions on the same roll. This is another reason I prefer to use dilute Perceptol, as it seems to handle them all very well and give a nice neg no matter what the light. This is especially reassuring for the high-contrast scenes where another developer might give me trouble.

Last edited by Svend; 4th October 2018 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 4th October 2018, 12:55 PM
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GoodOldNorm GoodOldNorm is offline
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Our friend Brock has some info on his site that may be of help to you including this http://www.theonlinedarkroom.com/p/h...-negative.html
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Old 4th October 2018, 05:45 PM
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Martin Aislabie Martin Aislabie is offline
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Hi Matt

I shoot HP5 and use the Zone system.

I paid for a film speed v exposure test - basic zone theory - and I got HP5 @ 8 stops subject brightness ratio - comes out at 160 ASA and 8m 15 s in ID11 @ 1+1.

Hope you find the info useful

Regards

Martin
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Old 4th October 2018, 07:21 PM
MattPitts MattPitts is offline
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Wow, thanks to everyone for your very helpful and informative replies. Need to go through everyones' replies carefully. But I going to do some experimenting as suggested by @mike O'pray. I'm also just using a starter developer kit from Tetenal at the moment. I think I will stick with one film stock and really get to know if before trying any others. What about developers? I have Paranol S currently. I was surprised how grainy the images look, but I guess I'm so used to seeing digital images, I'd forgotten the difference. I assume different developers and development times will have a bearing on the grain?
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