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  #41  
Old 18th February 2022, 03:08 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Originally Posted by Nat Polton View Post
The bubbles on the side of the bottle are a thing that drinkers of port wine try to avoid.
The interesting thing is the funnel used. It has the spout bent at ninety degrees, so that when the port wine enters the bottle, instead of sploshing oxygen into the bottom, it is directed at the bottle wall and slowly trickles in without creating bubbles.
For someone who, ahem, 'likes' port and has only drank two vintage ones (about 50+ years old +), I have never really worried about decanting and the little bit of grunge at the bottom of a bottle, but was surprised not to have heard of these funnels before.

Just checking, the first link is a funnel that Nat alludes to and the second is another interesting way of doing it:

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/6b/79/1f/6...ng-fillers.jpg

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stainless-W...196242&sr=8-16

Happy drinking however you do it!

Terry S
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  #42  
Old 18th February 2022, 03:11 PM
snusmumriken snusmumriken is offline
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Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
For someone who, ahem, 'likes' port and has only drank two vintage ones (about 50+ years old +), I have never really worried about decanting and the little bit of grunge at the bottom of a bottle, but was surprised not to have heard of these funnels before.

Just checking, the first link is a funnel that Nat alludes to and the second is another interesting way of doing it:

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/6b/79/1f/6...ng-fillers.jpg

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stainless-W...196242&sr=8-16

Happy drinking however you do it!

Terry S
Terry, that second one is a way to do exactly the opposite (more oxygen)!
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  #43  
Old 18th February 2022, 03:23 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Terry, that second one is a way to do exactly the opposite (more oxygen)!
Yes, I know. I presume that funnel is used directly before one wants to drink the port etc. I've never bothered with it myself.

Terry S
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  #44  
Old 18th February 2022, 03:28 PM
snusmumriken snusmumriken is offline
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Yes, I know. I presume that funnel is used directly before one wants to drink the port etc. I've never bothered with it myself.

Terry S
Nor have I. Any port will do, especially in a storm.
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  #45  
Old 18th February 2022, 04:29 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Nor have I. Any port will do, especially in a storm.
Isn't the problem with port, of the deep red variety especially, the storm that occurs the morning after reaching for the port

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  #46  
Old 19th February 2022, 07:03 PM
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The amount of gas in a liquid has a natural maximum it will absorb and it will quickly reach equilibrium. The warmer it is, the less gas it will absorb.

That is why developers contain preservative chemicals such as sodium sulphite which preferentially bind to oxygen and prevent it interacting with the other chemicals. The main thing is to stop more oxygen getting into the chemical as at some point, all the preservative will be bound to oxygen and any more is free to effect the developer. Floating an inactive gas on top prevents more oxygen reaching the developer. This is probably not important in a nearly full bottle with just a small air gap at the top as the preservative can probably deal with that much extra oxygen, but is likely to be very important with a half-empty bottle - i.e. half full of air.

As in all things, the answer is "it depends". And also, as with most things, no one knows how much "it" actually is... So better to take the engineering view and err on the safe side
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  #47  
Old 19th February 2022, 07:11 PM
snusmumriken snusmumriken is offline
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The amount of gas in a liquid has a natural maximum it will absorb and it will quickly reach equilibrium. The warmer it is, the less gas it will absorb.

That is why developers contain preservative chemicals such as sodium sulphite which preferentially bind to oxygen and prevent it interacting with the other chemicals. The main thing is to stop more oxygen getting into the chemical as at some point, all the preservative will be bound to oxygen and any more is free to effect the developer. Floating an inactive gas on top prevents more oxygen reaching the developer. This is probably not important in a nearly full bottle with just a small air gap at the top as the preservative can probably deal with that much extra oxygen, but is likely to be very important with a half-empty bottle - i.e. half full of air.

As in all things, the answer is "it depends". And also, as with most things, no one knows how much "it" actually is... So better to take the engineering view and err on the safe side
Is there anything in the way of a chain reaction: i.e. does the presence of oxidation products promote further oxidation? I am thinking of the droplets of heavily oxidised developer I noticed inside the neck of my last 1 litre bottle of MG Developer. That seems to be an issue with the Ilford containers, not seen it in glass Winchester bottles.
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  #48  
Old 19th February 2022, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by snusmumriken View Post
Is there anything in the way of a chain reaction: i.e. does the presence of oxidation products promote further oxidation? I am thinking of the droplets of heavily oxidised developer I noticed inside the neck of my last 1 litre bottle of MG Developer. That seems to be an issue with the Ilford containers, not seen it in glass Winchester bottles.
Sorry Jonathan, I have no idea - you will need to ask a real chemist about that!

My guess is that developer will splash up the sides and stick around the neck somewhat while moving the bottle and provide the greatest surface area to the air. Possibly in glass the developer mostly falls back but in plastic the liquid may be more inclined to stick - don't know but it seems somewhat logical...
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  #49  
Old 23rd February 2022, 05:17 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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To try and test the worthiness of tinned gases, I will put an equal amount of developer in two glass bottles. I will put gas in one and not the other and we shall see what happens... I will report back.

Terry S
Well, Saturday afternoon, I started the above, but having only one empty wine bottle to hand, (the refuse men had been the previous day) I rinsed out and used two plastic 4 pint milk bottles instead. I then put equal amounts (500ml) of freshly made lith developer in each and squirted lighter gas into one of them. I used some lith developer, as that is known for its short life in a tray and so I presumed that it wouldn't be much better in a bottle, even though it might only have a smaller surface area for air to be absorbed.

By the next morning (Sunday) both developers were VERY dark brown. From this I deduced that milk bottles should NOT be put on the list of bottles suitable to store chemicals in, but specifically NOT developers, in them. Milk is obviously not affected.

Sunday, I mixed up another litre of lith developer, but this time put it into two washed wine bottles, gassing one. 20 hours later, the non-gassed ones contents had become straw yellow. Today, Wednesday, one has continued to darken, while the gassed bottle remains clear.

I will give it until the weekend and then post some pictures of the two bottles, after which I will try out the two developers to see if either of them still work. I am confident that the one that hasn't changed colour will be fine at least, having stored partially used wine bottles of home mixed D76 / ID11 many times, with some 'gas' put into the bottles.

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I do believe though that using a gas to preserve chemicals in a bottle is akin to snake oil.
Sorry John, but from this experiment so far, I am quite confident that a good squirt of 'gas' put into part used bottles of chemicals, but mostly developers, does have an effect and does extend the life of such. Your system of keeping full bottles also works, but that's something different all together.

I hope this helps people make their own decision in whether to use the 'gas' or not.

Terry S
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  #50  
Old 24th February 2022, 01:33 PM
snusmumriken snusmumriken is offline
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Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
Sunday, I mixed up another litre of lith developer, but this time put it into two washed wine bottles, gassing one. 20 hours later, the non-gassed ones contents had become straw yellow. Today, Wednesday, one has continued to darken, while the gassed bottle remains clear.

I will give it until the weekend and then post some pictures of the two bottles, after which I will try out the two developers to see if either of them still work. I am confident that the one that hasn't changed colour will be fine at least, having stored partially used wine bottles of home mixed D76 / ID11 many times, with some 'gas' put into the bottles.

Sorry John, but from this experiment so far, I am quite confident that a good squirt of 'gas' put into part used bottles of chemicals, but mostly developers, does have an effect and does extend the life of such. Your system of keeping full bottles also works, but that's something different all together.

I hope this helps people make their own decision in whether to use the 'gas' or not.

Terry S
This is very encouraging. Where can I get snake oil?
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