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  #1  
Old 29th October 2010, 02:38 PM
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HopALong HopALong is offline
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Default Milky Negs Again

I posted thread before asking for advise as to why my negs had thurned yellow. I had the thought they were not fixed properly and that was the thoughts of everyone who answered.
The thread can be seen here

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.or...ead.php?t=3085

I have just processed another film using Ilfosol 3 again and a brand new bottle of fotospeed fixer. I didn't overfix but kept to the times and temperatures.
When I removed the negs from the tank after fixing to check them and then set them away to rinse they were yellow and milky again.
Is it possible that the developer is causing this as it has only started happening since I changed over to Ilfosol 3.
I am at a total loss as to what it is I am doing wrong. I have processed 100's of rolls of film and never had this happen, then when I change my developer to try and gain in contrast I get 3 films in a row going milky and yellow.

Andy
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Old 29th October 2010, 04:10 PM
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Default milky negs

Can you give more details about the type of film you processed, developer dilution, stop and fix type?
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Old 29th October 2010, 04:30 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Don't understand whats happening, the only time I have come across this problem is with underfixed negatives, using dilute fixer that is exhausted, never seen it as a developer problem, we need more details, what was the fixer dilution, temperture,what film,developer dilution and temp, without those details we are totalty in the dark, the only guess is did you dilute the fixer to print strength(1/9) and fix for film strength time( 4 to 5 minutes),but that is a stab in the dark,more details please Richard
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Old 29th October 2010, 04:35 PM
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Ilford Delta 400, 120. (the last 2 films that went milky were the same).
Ilfosol 3 Dev, mixed 1+9, temp 20degrees, time 7 minutes (recommended by Ilford).
Fotospeed SB40 Stop Bath, mixed 1+29, temp 20 degrees, recommended time 10 seconds (as 10 seconds is not long by the time you have poured the stop into the tank I would say the film is probably in stop for about 30-40 seconds max. Always used it the same in the past and never had a problem with it before).
Fotospeed FX20 Rapid Fixer, mixed 1+9, temp 20 degrees, recommended time 2 minutes. (I used to fix religiously for 5 minutes until the last 2 films went milky, I was then advised not to overfix as this may be part of the problem, this film was a strict 2 minutes).

All chemicals were mixed fresh and temperatures were checked prior to use.

I always use the fotospeed stop bath and fixer and have never had any trouble. I replaced the fixer for a new bottle after 2 other films going milky.
The only difference for these 3 films from all my previous films is the dev which was changed from Fotospeed FD10 to Ilfosol 3.
A brief history, before using the Fotospeed FD10 dev I used to use Ilfotec DDX with excellent results but due to financial reasons I changed to the FD10 only to find it was a possible cause for a lack of contrast in my negs.
That was where the Ilfosol 3 came in and the start of my problems.
I now have great contrast again but milky negs.
I am going to shoot 2 films tomorrow and use FD10 to dev one film and Ilfosol 3 for the other to see if it is the developer causing the problem.
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Old 29th October 2010, 04:38 PM
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Martin Aislabie Martin Aislabie is offline
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TMax, Delta, Acros and the other modern emulsions require extended fixing time.

The times quoted on the side of the bottle are often the minimum fixing time of conventional film under near ideal conditions.

It’s hard to know exactly how long to fix the more modern emulsions but at least twice as long as conventional films (FP4/HP5/...)

The rule of thumb has always been to leave Negs in the Fixer for twice the time taken for the Negs to clear of their milky appearance.

The milky appearance comes from the Fixer turning the undeveloped silver halides into the first of stage of fixing (complex argentothiosulphates) which are non-soluble.
The second stage of fixing turns the undeveloped halides into soluble argentothiosulphates which are clear.

It is probably worth re-fixing your Negs until they become clear as the images are probably not very stable and could deteriorate rapidly

Note - as a rule of thumb I fix HP5 & FP4 for 4 mins and T Max & Delta for 8 mins in Hypam at 1+4 .

Martin

Last edited by Martin Aislabie; 29th October 2010 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 29th October 2010, 05:03 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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I have never heard of fixing for longer causing milkiness. There is a considerable latitude in fixing times beyond the min required to fix. Exceeding such times and I have never seen less than 10 mins quoted can cause some of the neg's very fine detail to be destroyed, allegedly

Given the times needed for Delta films and especially Tmax films I rather doubt that beyond 10 mins is harmful

I'd be wary of doing as little as 2 mins. With older technolgy films such as HP5+ and FP4+ this might just about be enough with new fixer but it would seem to be right on the minimum.

As others have said I'd certainly try fixing quite a bit longer. I'd go for at least 5 mins then look at the negs to check and carrying fixing and checking every 2 mins until all milkiness has gone.

I'd also use agitation of at least the same as that recommended for developer. Some say that just letting the film sit in the fixer with maybe one agitation after a minute is enough but I'd stick with dev agitation.

Mike
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Old 29th October 2010, 05:04 PM
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Think I have the awnser to your problem,you are using the fixer at 1/9, which is fine but you would need around 10 minutes to fix a film, you need 5 minutes at that dilution to fix a fb print, so 2 is far to short for a film, better to use the fixer at 1/4 and fix for 4 minutes, which is what every other fixer that I have ever used, reccomends, 1 minute is to short at 1/4, you need longer to fix a fb print, I am reading straight from the label and 3 minutes, whicdh at 1/4 is longer than the ilford suggestion,(2 minutes at 1/4 for fb prints) and ilford suggests 4 minutes, for film at 1/4, so try 4 minutes at1/4 and see how it goes, Richard

Last edited by Richard Gould; 29th October 2010 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 29th October 2010, 05:17 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Bit more that I forgot, you need to fix a film for at least twice as long as it takes to clear, and I would suggest that 3 time the clearing time is safer, the extra time will do no harm,and will make certain the film is well fixed and will not stain due to bad fixing,Richard
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Old 29th October 2010, 05:18 PM
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Default milky film

I think Martin has given you the solution. I personally am not a fan of Tabular-grain film as it requires the manufacturer to get all the grains to lay the same way. In my view this type of emulsion lacks the integrity employed in a standard film like FP4. I would fix HP5 & FP4 for 6
mins and T Max & Delta for 12 mins in Hypam at 1+4.
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Old 29th October 2010, 05:26 PM
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Thanks everyone, I have clear negs.
This is what I did. On the first two rolls some time ago I fixed for my usual 5 minutes, result milky negs, I then fixed them for a further 5 minutes, still milky negs, not to be defeated I tried a third time and still milky negs drawing me to the conclusion my fixer must be defunct.
For this film I used a new bottle of fixer and had been advised last time that I should never overfix a film so taking that on board I followed the fixers instructions which said 2 minutes. This seemed short to me, but I was trying everything to stop the previous problem. Failed again, milky negs.
I have just mixed up a batch 1+9 and put it in a tray. I then put the milky film in the tray to see if it would rectify the problem. Remember it has already been fixed for 2 minutes. It required a further 12 minutes and they went clear, so I left them for an extra minute and rinsed them off. 15 minutes in total fix time.
I have just grabbed the other negs that were fixed for 15 minutes total went milky and put them in the tray, 5 minutes later clear. I was surprised as its been along time since they were processed. Yahoo.
I can only think something was wrong with the fixer before and this time I was over cautious.
Thanks again everyone.
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