Support our Sponsors, they keep FADU free:   AG Photographic   The Imaging Warehouse   Process Supplies   RH Designs   Second-hand Darkroom Supplies  

Notices

Go Back   Film and Darkroom User > Monochrome Work > Monochrome Film

  ***   Click here for the FADU 2015/2014 Yearbooks   ***

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 7th December 2012, 10:40 AM
Adrian Adrian is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Yateley in Hampshire
Posts: 206
Default Unintentional rescue remedy for under-exposed FP4+

I recently shot a roll of FP4+ at box-speed and inadvertently ended up closing down by 2 stops for 10/15 shots until I'd realised what'd happened. Oops. So, I thought I'd wasted most of the roll.

I developed the film in what I thought was ID11 1+3 for 18.5 mins (21C)(having found I didn't have enough of what I thought was 1+1, so I added extra water to make up to 1+3.)

When I looked at the contact sheet, I was amased. The frames that should have been nearly black were a bit underexposed (~1/2 stop) but usable. The remainder of the frames looked fine, if a little contrasty. Upon printing, I didn't like the contrast so printed at 1 grade lower. I also noticed grain. I thought, 1+3 ID11 and FP4+ should be very fine grained. So, what had happened? I'd rescued the roll of film, got more contrast and grain, but neither contrast nor grain were excessive. I must have pushed the FP4+ unintentionally.

When I thought about what I'd done, I realised I'd mixed stock (not 1+1) with 2 parts water: effectively 1+2 and pushed it to 18.5 mins dev time.

So the lessons learned are:
1. Always read the label even if it's written by oneself!
2. 1+2 and 18.5 mins is a potentially useful rescue remedy for a 2-stop underexposure of FP4.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 7th December 2012, 03:03 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: West Midlands/Aegean
Posts: 1,988
Default

I always preferred ID-11 at 1+2 finer grain than 1+3 and sharper and with less drop in speed than full strenght and 1+1.

However I used to get similar results with replenishment with the advantage of very significant economy, but I was using deep taks.

Perceptol and Xtol are also excellent at 1+2 you just need to plot a quick graph of the manufacturers recommendations for FS, 1+1 & 1+3 to get a good starting point for 1+2.

I can't understand why no manufacturer gives this figure.

Ian
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 7th December 2012, 05:11 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
Friend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Daventry, Northants
Posts: 8,969
Default

I think the interesting thing is whether with FP4+ at effectively EI 500 the negs were grainier and harder to print than say HP5+ at box speed?

If there is little to choose between them then if most of your light conditions suit FP4+ and it's your favourite you have a safety margin that allows a FP4+ to be used when light conditions become unexpectedly adverse without changing film midway through a roll.

Especially useful if its MF. Certainly with my P645N there is no way to use the remainder of a roll once I have wound on from mid-roll - well not one I can think of.

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 7th December 2012, 05:20 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 1,426
Default

I have had a long spell of developing 35mm HP5 in D76 at 1+2. I give it 15 minutes and like the results a lot.
Recently I tried 35mm FP4 in the same mix for 14 minutes. but had to print on grade 3.5. So 15 minutes may have been better, though this, of course, depends on how much exposure you give.
For FP4 I think Perceptol at 1+2 is a much better bet. My negatives developed in D76 were noticably grainy. Little different to HP5, in fact, in terms of grain and sharpness. But FP4 in Perceptol 1+2 is much better; sharp and fine grained. I think HP5 is slightly better in Perceptol 1+2, in terms of grain. But if you don't mind a hint of grain D76 at 1+2 gives very sharp results with HP5,along with great tonality, and negatives that are very easy to print, in my experience.

Alan
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 7th December 2012, 05:24 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 1,426
Default

I forgot to add that D76 is much better for pushing if you need to do it. Perceptol doesn't do pushing, as everyone knows!

Alan
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 7th December 2012, 06:06 PM
Argentum's Avatar
Argentum Argentum is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sceptred Isle
Posts: 3,066
Default

Extract from Darkrroom Cookbook (Anchell).
Quote:
SODIUM SULFITE
Synonyms: Sulfi te, Sulfi te of soda.
Appearance: White crystals or powder.
Uses: As a preservative of developing agents; constituent of the acid fi xing bath; blackener in
negative intensifi cation; active energizer in amidol development.
Notes: Sodium sulfi te is the most widely used preservative in developers. It also plays an
important part in the process itself. By using a suffi cient quantity of sulfi te, you can prevent
the formation of many undesirable by-products during development.
Sulfi te is also an important solvent for silver halide. It can therefore have a noticeable
effect on the graininess of the silver image at concentrations over 50.0 g/liter.
What this means is that as you dilute your developer from stock the solvent effect of the sulphite is reduced which means more grain but also more edge effects due to more by-products being produce (bromides). i.e. greater apparent sharpness but also granier.

ID11 has 100g per litre of stock. 1+2 has 33.33g per litre of working strength.

so for finest grain you should be using stock undiluted if that is what you want.
same applies with Perceptol which also has 100g sodium sulphite in 1 litre of stock

Last edited by Argentum; 7th December 2012 at 06:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 7th December 2012, 06:19 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 1,426
Default

More grain and more sharpness...
I have compared HP5 in D76 1+2 and 1+3, and can see very little difference, if any. But compared to 1+1, there is a definite increase in sharpness, and a very slight increase in grain. On a 10 x 8inch print from a 35mm negative the increase in grain is not really noticable from a normal viewing distance. But the increase in sharpness is.
So,more grain and more sharpness, but not in equal proportions; in my experience.

Alan
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 7th December 2012, 08:15 PM
kevsNorthants's Avatar
kevsNorthants kevsNorthants is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: In a house
Posts: 53
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostlabours View Post
I always preferred ID-11 at 1+2 finer grain than 1+3 and sharper and with less drop in speed than full strenght and 1+1.

<snipped>

Ian
Just to drag this thread OT for a mo, I've never noticed any speed drop in ID-11. I develop my FP4+ (exposed at 125 ASA) at 1:3 at 20 c. for 20 mins and my negs appear properly exposed and developed with a full range of tones. I've never noticed a problem with grain in ID-11 either, having printed 14" from 6x6cm with minimal grain. So I think the idea of 'speed loss' in certain devs is a misunderstanding.

You don't have to reply and I don't wish to start an argument - this is just an observation and your mileage may vary.

Cheers,
kevs
__________________
Confucius say, "Build a man a fire and he's warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life!"
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 8th December 2012, 04:23 AM
Argentum's Avatar
Argentum Argentum is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sceptred Isle
Posts: 3,066
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Clark View Post
More grain and more sharpness...
I have compared HP5 in D76 1+2 and 1+3, and can see very little difference, if any. But compared to 1+1, there is a definite increase in sharpness, and a very slight increase in grain. On a 10 x 8inch print from a 35mm negative the increase in grain is not really noticable from a normal viewing distance. But the increase in sharpness is.
So,more grain and more sharpness, but not in equal proportions; in my experience.

Alan
Your results seem to match what Anchell says.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 9th December 2012, 05:07 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
Friend
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: West Midlands/Aegean
Posts: 1,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevsNorthants View Post
Just to drag this thread OT for a mo, I've never noticed any speed drop in ID-11. I develop my FP4+ (exposed at 125 ASA) at 1:3 at 20 c. for 20 mins and my negs appear properly exposed and developed with a full range of tones. I've never noticed a problem with grain in ID-11 either, having printed 14" from 6x6cm with minimal grain. So I think the idea of 'speed loss' in certain devs is a misunderstanding.

You don't have to reply and I don't wish to start an argument - this is just an observation and your mileage may vary.

Cheers,
kevs
Speed loss is more about the EI you need to shoot at to achieve a good long tnal range and retain good shadow detail.

Good examples are Tmax 100 and APX100 both of which I did Zone system tests with, to get similar results I shot the Tmax at 50EI and the APX100 at 100EI in 35mm, 120 & 5x4.

It's some years since I used FP4 regularly but it was once my main B&W film and I always shot if at 80EI in replenished ID-11.

However you're using ID-11 at 1+3 shich has some compensating affects this also helps slightly with the effective EI.

The differences between full strenght ID-11 and 1+3 in terms of sharpness and grain are more noticable with 35mm than 120 (6x6) particularly with enlargements of 14" wide, I'm enlarging 6x6 negatives a bit more than that at times and I want the best possible results.

Ian
Reply With Quote
Reply
Support our Sponsors, they keep FADU free:   AG Photographic   The Imaging Warehouse   Process Supplies   RH Designs   Second-hand Darkroom Supplies  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Delta 400 exposed at 100 iso vincent Monochrome Film 20 20th October 2012 04:28 PM
Shelf life of exposed E-6 Keith Cocker Colour film 5 5th October 2010 10:38 AM
Old film just exposed photomi7ch Monochrome Film 19 6th November 2009 08:28 PM
Under exposed SFX Mark Burley Monochrome Film 7 18th January 2009 01:20 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.