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  #31  
Old 22nd February 2013, 02:48 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Default Ok, a new bottle of LE it is...

Thanks again Mike and Paul for your comments.

I read a load more on the net and in the book last night and can't find a comment of anyone else ever having as many problems as I am having... hard to believe, but there we go!

Good point though Paul, about putting a smaller amount in eg a film canister, ie heating smaller amounts in one go rather than the whole pot each time. Never thought of how the ongoing heating and reheating might affect the whole pot, but it makes sense that it can't be doing it much good.

As I've said, it was a second hand pot of LE and with a manufactures date of about a decade ago. Real shame though, as it does seem to produce a good tone still = just a shame that it washes straight off the substrates!

Anyway, I'm definitely going to get a fresh batch of LE and carry on with using it, as everything I've read on the net and in the book inspires me to no end!

The thing is, everything that I have read says how easy it is to work with (in general) and how it should stick to just about any surface with minimal problems, so fingers crossed and crossed again that it isn't just me being jinxed.

And there's definitely no mention of the LE dissolving in quite cold water... ANYWHERE!!!

So, I'll keep you all update once I've ordered, received and tried out the new bottle in the coming weeks.

Many thanks to one and all once more.

Terry S
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  #32  
Old 10th March 2013, 04:51 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Default LE = an update

Okay, I had a spare bit of time at the beginning of a short darkroom session today (printing stuff for the print exchange rounds) so thought that I'd do some more experimenting.

First off, I bought some Alum from Ebay for next to nothing = apparently it's available at a lot of grocers, as it's used in pickling vegetables amongst other things.

I also did as suggested and put a small amount of LE in a 35mm film container and put that into the LE box. Into the microwave for about 15 seconds and... the box and it's contents were boiling hot! So, only a couple of seconds are required it seems.

In the darkroom, I opened the box to find the cannister had fallen over and most of the moisture from the LE had been absorbed by the box.

Having coated some small bits of paper the night before with some Alum solution, I did what I could with the little bit I was able to scrape from the box.

The test involved, Alum coated paper + LE with a little Alum liquid in it; Alum coated paper with NO Alum in the LE and NON Alum coated paper + LE with a little Alum liquid in.

Well, the TWO papers that had the Alum mixed in with the LE gave much better results than achieved previously, although because so little was left to use, the emulsion and ie the picture was a little thin, but there was one at least.

A rinse of the paper as before and the print stayed put (hurrah!) and even after rinsing in quite hot (but not boiling water) from the tap and it still stayed put and didn't slide off of the paper as in the previous first tests.

So, it appears the (second hand) LE is still fine after all these years and after an unknown amount of meltings in the microwave and hot water.

I also note on some current products that they come with a sachet of hardener and wonder if this was all that was missing from the Jessops branded LE?

I will update again when I next have a spare bit of time away from my Uni bits and hopefully will have a print to show for it as well.

Terry S
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  #33  
Old 10th March 2013, 06:04 PM
paulc paulc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
First off, I bought some Alum from Ebay for next to nothing = apparently it's available at a lot of grocers, as it's used in pickling vegetables amongst other things
Chrome alum (CAS No. 10141-00-1) is not the same as "food grade" alum - The latter is (most likely) potassium alum (CAS No. 10043-67-1). From memory (and a posting from Ian Grant elsewhere) whilst potassium alum may work as a hardener, it requires an acid solution of ph5 or lower.
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  #34  
Old 11th March 2013, 01:25 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulc View Post
Chrome alum (CAS No. 10141-00-1) is not the same as "food grade" alum - The latter is (most likely) potassium alum (CAS No. 10043-67-1). From memory (and a posting from Ian Grant elsewhere) whilst potassium alum may work as a hardener, it requires an acid solution of ph5 or lower.
Oh, okay on that...

Yes, I believe it will be Potassium Alum (white in colour) rather than Chrome Alum (which is purple in colour I believe?)

From my quick tests it definitely works as a gelatine hardener for me and having just done a quick web search, many sources quote both as being used as a hardener of gelatine amongst many other things, so I am not sure if one is better than the other?

But, I am more than happy with the result AND the white Alum is a lot easier to get and is MUCH cheaper to buy!

Terry S
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  #35  
Old 23rd March 2013, 10:48 AM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
...white Alum is a lot easier to get and is MUCH cheaper to buy!

Terry S
UPDATE:

My experiments continue when time allows

Looking again on the web / ebay, but this time tried the full name of Potassium Alum and it came up with a lot more results, so have now purchased a small tub of this PURPLE Alum as well to try, to compare to the plain white Alum as mentioned before.

By not putting in the Potassium bit didn't bring this product up and ie I only had photo sites to look at for the price and a hefty p/p = which is fine if I was making a larger order!

Terry S
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  #36  
Old 14th October 2019, 09:12 AM
Paulographic Paulographic is offline
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I've read this thread through and taken notes, thanks to those posting.
The reason is I have a good quantity of paper acquired over the years, artists watercolour and heavier cartridge papers all in smaller sizes that are not going to get used up for painting and I have neither the means nor inclination to start up graphic arts printings processes. I've passed some paper on to a friend experimenting with lino cuts but still have lots left. It suddenly occurred to me that maybe darkroom prints might be the answer using liquid emulsion (LE).
Another reason for using coated ordinary papers is I'm after a very matt soft finish to the final prints which may be hand tinted/toned with watercolours or inks. As a student I used matt printing papers which I think had starch grains in the emulsion and never gave a deep true black and were put through the rotary drier backwards, the emulsion against the cloth.
I don't know if any paper like this is still available as it might be less trouble than trying to make my own.

To sum up if any member has used LE since the last posting and can offer further advice and help I'd be very grateful. Things like is a subbing layer really necessary on paper, are hardeners always needed? Silverprint suggest not for their own brand LE.
I have the boxes and bags needed to dry and store and I've not seen any mention of how flat the paper dries. I considered using the traditional technique for watercolours of stretching the paper to dry.
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  #37  
Old 14th October 2019, 11:34 AM
alexmuir alexmuir is online now
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Hi, Paul. I can’t help with coating your own papers, but wondered if you have tried the Ilford MG fibre based paper with the Matt surface? It is very Matt, and is a nice paper to work with. I would think that the surface would accept ink and hand-colouring materials. It resembles cartridge paper when dry. I have only used it in the 5x7 size, but have found it easy to flatten once dry.
Coating paper with LE is on my ‘to do’ list, but I’m not there yet. I have a book that covers the subject, and I think you will need to use gelatine, or similar prior to coating. It may not be necessary to pre-shrink the paper as it’s only likely to go through one wet cycle, but shrinking is easy to do if it’s necessary.
Alex


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  #38  
Old 14th October 2019, 12:32 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Hi Paul, I think that I may have made further posts about it after the above posts, but would have to check. And as it happens I too have been feeling an urge to do some more work with LE recently, for a postcard exchange that I belong to.

From memory, with a new bottle of Rollei VC LE, I found no need to sub any paper that I was using, but did add just a few grains of Pot. Chrome Alum to a small amount of LE in a small jam jar in the darkroom, which was then put in a bowl of hotter water to melt it, before being used immediately. The paper was then left for at least 24 hours before using btw. As for the Alum, I added this, as the LE remained rather delicate and easily damaged whilst wet and this hardened it up a little, although a good thorough washing needs to be given at the end.

As for paper, I tried some really cheap lined paper right up to expensive watercolour pads, at about £15 for about 10 A4 sheets. The more expensive and thicker the paper got, the better the results. Thin cartridge paper was basically useless (the LE came off and the paper fell apart when wet, really easily) and a waste of paper, time and LE, but the experiments needed to be done, to find this out. And for these tests, use only a thin strip of paper to save on the LE, as it don't come cheap!

So, for paper I've now stuck with Daler Rowney and Winsor & Newton watercolour papers = no where near the most expensive but all do the job well. The textured papers look really nice when used, giving a similar effect to Ilford's Art 300 paper. And the thicker the paper (I use 300 gsm) the less likely it is to need stretching or special drying procedures.

As for Alex's comment, I use Ilford MG Matt paper quite a lot, although it's not to everyone's taste and yes, it dries very matt, dries almost flat and is great for inks etc when dry = something else that I enjoy trying.

I'd be interested to hear how you get on with your LE usage and I'll report back similar when I get a chance to do it again, hopefully not too far in the future.

Terry S

PS I've just remembered... I use 'hake' brushes, rather than the glass rods that some use to coat papers when doing alt. processes.They are goats hair brushes, with plain wooden handles, with the bristles held in place with string. The most important bit though is that they don't have any metal in them to cover the base of the bristles, as this over time gets rusty and can taint your LE. I keep them with my bottle of LE in the salad drawer in the fridge, so they don't get used for anything else. Art shops do them but they are cheaper from China etc on ebay, the last time I looked and got mine. This is of course if you don't mind the wait.

Last edited by Terry S; 14th October 2019 at 12:47 PM.
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