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  #61  
Old 12th September 2014, 12:40 PM
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Argentum Argentum is offline
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Yes, all this technical stuff is a step too far for many and certainly isn't "required", but enquiring minds like to know about these things.

My absolute top tip for testing which doesn't require any maths or numbers or special equipment is as follows.

In Adams book "the negative" you will find a page with a photo of zones patches from zone 0 thru zone X. Reproduce that as a learning exercise.

I took a piece of 8x10 mount board, marked it up with a grid of squares and cut them out using a hand mount board cutter, taking care to mark each cutout square on one side with a number and the same number on card so that I could put all the squares back in same cutout in same orientation.

Then I do a film test exposing zone 0 thru X and develop. Use hardboard or rendered wall or other evenly lit and slightly textured subject as your target.

then I take the Zone I negative and print a test strip from it until I find the exposure which just gives a hint of tone above max black after dry down and use the time for that in following test.

Put a piece of 8x10 paper under the mountboard with all the patches in place and then one by one expose each zone with same time removing the relative patch from the card and replacing after exposure. Develop and print and you have a zone patch test just like in "The negative"

You will learn more about your film speed and what is really happening with your metering and where stuff actually ends up than by doing any other test. You will be able to see whether your shadows have enough separation. You will be able to see if your zone 3 and zone 7 really do have full textural detail or are over or under exposed. You will gain appreciation for local contrast based on the subject you photographed.

And it teaches some controlled printing sequence and you know each patch had the exact same print development because its all on one piece of paper. And you'll learn to use a mountboard cutter with precision.

There you go guys, no technobollocks but I bet you all think its overkill even without all the numbers, expensive step wedges and expensive desitometers. I promise you it isn't. Well not if you really want to nail neg development to get really easily printable negatives it isn't. You'll have high confidence that what you are placing on any zone is where it will actually land.

No pain no gain

Last edited by Argentum; 12th September 2014 at 12:44 PM.
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  #62  
Old 12th September 2014, 01:03 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
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Argentum, where would we be without you? I was a bit concerned that you might be offended by my post. Pleased you weren't.
Thanks for the non-techno test. I have lots of mount card, and a mount cutter. All I need is an excuse not to do it! (But I can see its usefulness)

Alan
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  #63  
Old 12th September 2014, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Clark View Post
Argentum, where would we be without you? I was a bit concerned that you might be offended by my post. Pleased you weren't.
Thanks for the non-techno test. I have lots of mount card, and a mount cutter. All I need is an excuse not to do it! (But I can see its usefulness)

Alan
Not at all, I've said it myself on many occasions that printing really comes down to pure intuition. You can never produce an expressive print by numbers, it just doesn't work that way.

But having said that, going through the learning curve with all this technical stuff is very liberating when you come out the other end with confidence that you can resolve all the problems you are likely to encounter with equipment and materials. You can just do some of these tests which tell you exactly what is wrong.

For example, I bet that most people with a dichroic enlarger haven't got a clue what the speed point of their filtration system is and whether all the filters cross at a single speed point.

Without that knowledge you are going to waste a lot of time and money over the years in the extra step wedges you need to produce to nail your print time and contrast. Or whilst learning to print you will be confused as hell about why when you change contrast it doesn't produce the result you expect. Without being able to verify what your dichroic filtration is doing makes life difficult.
Again this is why ilford filters make life easy but you don't know that until you test them too or someone tells you.

The technical stuff provides deeper understanding.

But again I do agree that you can easily bogged down in all the technical stuff and you shouldn't expect it to miraculously produce super prints. They may be technically good but dull as dishwater.

Last edited by Argentum; 12th September 2014 at 02:51 PM.
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  #64  
Old 12th September 2014, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argentum View Post
Not at all, I've said it myself on many occasions that printing really comes down to pure intuition. You can never produce an expressive print by numbers, it just doesn't work that way.
How true.
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  #65  
Old 12th September 2014, 09:50 PM
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I am absolutely sure that, if someone uses the testing sequence referred to in my post #6 in this thread, you will not need to engage with any more technical considerations but simply use your well exposed negatives to develop you printing style.

Too many people try to make everything too complicated. Practical testing gets you there in one long afternoon and after that it is down to what you want to achieve.

Step-wedges are a cul-de-sac because they do not relate to how your lens transmits light, how your equipment generates internal flare, how your way of metering and exposing effects the end result, which developer you choose to use, how you agitate, what kind of enlarger you have and what paper/developer combination you choose to use.

Practically based test are really the only way to go because they are based on what you use and what you are looking for.

Bests,

David.
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  #66  
Old 13th September 2014, 07:15 AM
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For what stouffers sells in SDS [ as they were named here before about them] nobody can call it an expensive, complicated, testing tool given the amount of valuable references that they can offer... only contact printing it.

It can tell in a breeze how contrasty is your filtering pack, paper, alternative process emulsion, what kind of printing exposure you will need, your needed exposure for maximum black (in any zone or contrast index), where you will get the first hint of detail, or test if your high contrast under the lens filters are weak, among other things that I didn't told, without nothing else that a pencil and basic arithmetic operations that any 8 years old kid can perform. Knowing your materials in the long run will put time in your hands and money in your pocket.

Sure, you can do without them, and that those numbers won't lead you to an expressive print which is mainly a matter of taste and experience, but they will save a lot of time fiddling with blind and uninformative test strips about contrast & exposure, headaches while pinpointing darkroom bugs, and shorten the learning curve acquiring some useful knowledge about photographic materials behaviour, because ya know, the more you know, the less you need.

BTW, there are a lot of religion [ read it as personal non transferrable working methods ] in this thread of not much help to the original question.
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  #67  
Old 16th September 2014, 11:01 AM
SanMiguel SanMiguel is offline
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I think this thread has been most helpful to me, not least as it offers a range of opinions on the best way to skin this particular cat. After all, if there was 'one true way' then it would all get kind of boring, right? This has been a very open and healthy debate with room given for other people's views.

Its up to me now to read through this thread (again) and make my own call as to how to proceed - and I dare say I might even make a few mistakes along the way. Well I sincerely hope I do otherwise I'd be playing this game far too safe, right?!

Thanks again to all who contributed. I know from looking through the archives that a lot of this has been said before so I appreciate the time and effort put in to help. It's great to have had this discussion in one (reasonably!) coherent thread.

Now, I'm off to print something...
Michael
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