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Old 19th December 2016, 10:46 AM
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GoodOldNorm GoodOldNorm is offline
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Default Does Ilford Harman make film to be sold using other names

I see Ilford make a wide variety of film with the names Ilford and Kentmere on the box. Is Adox or Rollei film made by Harman? Does Harman cut its Ilford branded films from the best part of the master rolls then sell off the inferior cuts to be sold under other names? Its a question I should have asked on their last factory tour. If I was to contact Harman and ask for a factory tour in 2017 would any FADU members be interested?
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Old 19th December 2016, 11:10 AM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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I think it is complicated, Norm. Harman or Pemberstone as it now is does make films for others as in it makes the Fuji B&W C41 film which some might regard as a rival to XP2+. I think but I am not sure if make is the right term. I have seen the word "confections" used as in "does the key bits" like adding the emulsion.

I have yet to see a full list of other makes films that Ilford has a hand in making nor do I expect to given the commercial nature of this.

If you were to trawl all the threads on this subject on APUG and sort the wheat from the chaff it might( I wouldn't put it stronger than that) be possible to draw up a full and true list but even then questions might remain

What it says emphatically that it does not do is simply re-badge its own film for a rival so for instance HP5+, D400 etc is unique to Ilford/Pemberstone.

I don't think I have ever seen anyone ask the question: Does it sell or turn "offcuts" which may be inferior, to others as their films or sell under a mysterious unknown source so to speak.

I feel certain it does not. I am not sure if I have cleared anything up here or muddied the waters further.

I have managed two Ilford tours so don't think I'd bother with a third

Mind you if I were to be on a tour and you were to ask that question of "selling off inferior cuts" then I promise to remain by your side in case you were to disappear in one of the darker areas of the factory, never to be seen again

Mike
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Old 19th December 2016, 11:28 AM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Ilford has made film for a number of other companies including Fuji as Mike says they make Fuji's c41 B&W film but they also made their High Speed B&W film at one time, and Fuji Rembrandt B&W paper.

However they don't sell any of their own "brabded" films or papers to third parties, they are emulsions especially for those companies which have included Adox (Fotoimpex) AgfaPhoto (APX100), Bergger etc.

It's important to realise that current AgfaPhoto films have no link with Agfa themselves or their original films, the colour film is Fuji, The APX100 is made by Ilford and is completely different to the original film of the same name.

So a master roll of FP$ all gets sold as FP4 except any found defective which is scrapped.

Ian
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Old 19th December 2016, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post

Mind you if I were to be on a tour and you were to ask that question of "selling off inferior cuts" then I promise to remain by your side in case you were to disappear in one of the darker areas of the factory, never to be seen again

Mike
You are right I may have to re-phrase it as edge or end/beginning of the master role. There used to be a saying if anything was made that was poor quality or faulty "It was made on the Friday night shift" when all that people were bothered about was getting home after a long week.
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Old 19th December 2016, 03:59 PM
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Martin Aislabie Martin Aislabie is offline
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Ilford sell film both marketed and priced at the quality end of the market.

It is therefore imperative that they protect their brand in that niche by only selling quality products.

All their off cuts and potentially dodgy coatings are now scrapped/recycled internally.

Other than their own slightly more economical range of Kentmere films, they do not sell their own products under a different marketing name/brand.

Ilford/Harman do coat the Fuji equivalent of Ilford XP2 on behalf of Fuji.

However, there is a world of difference between coating material on behalf of A N Other manufacturer and selling your own product under several different brands.

Back in the days when analogue was the only show in town, companies like Ilford and its main competitors would sometimes sell their suspect coated material off cheaply through chosen 3rd parties.

However, after the management buy out of the company 10 years or so ago, Ilford immediately stopped that practice as it not only undermined their own market quality niche but also their products price premium.

So, while it is possible to buy cheaper brands than Ilford, be under no doubt, it is not Ilford material, no matter who tells you that it is.

Martin
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Old 19th December 2016, 05:58 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Originally Posted by Martin Aislabie View Post
So, while it is possible to buy cheaper brands than Ilford, be under no doubt, it is not Ilford material, no matter who tells you that it is.

Martin
Clarifying that you mean it's not an Ilford branded product repackaged. The issue before the restructuring was due to Jessops, not a nice company to deal with I went to a few meetings at their head office.

The other side of this is the products made for 3rd parties by Ilford/Harman pass through the same high quality controls as their own branded products.

I know that some of the emulsion components for the Fuji films Ilford made (make) were supplied by Fuji themselves. Initially the agreement between Ilford & Fuji was the UK made Fuji films wouldn't be sold in the main Ilford markets Europe and US unfortunately there were so many grey imports that had to change.

The Ilford/Fuji link was never secret, it was covered in the BJP and newspapers, I saw it announced in the Telegraph.

The Bergger and Adox links for certain products have also been out in the open, as is the source of APX100 (current).

Ian
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Old 21st December 2016, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostlabours View Post
Clarifying that you mean it's not an Ilford branded product repackaged.
Ian
Thanks Ian

Yes - that is exactly what I meant.

Martin
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Old 22nd December 2016, 01:36 PM
big paul big paul is offline
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I have bought some kentmere film its only made in 35mm at the moment I will try it out after Christmas it has made me wonder what its like is it a copy of a old film or a copy of a current film if you have used it whats it like.



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Old 22nd December 2016, 02:26 PM
John King John King is offline
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I think Ilford do protect some of their 'top end' films by not making a similar one with the same ISO. FP4+ and Pan F for example. With others you can generally tell if they are not from Ilford by looking at the processing times for different developers for instance. Also if you are a constant user of Delta 100 then use say Kentmere 100 you will be able to tell by the size of the grain (or lack of it) when enlarged.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 02:29 PM
DaveP DaveP is offline
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From what I've read elsewhere Kentmere 100 and 400 are lower silver versions of FP4+ and HP5+, so in practice this probably means less exposure latitude, less ability to push process or otherwise abuse them? Lower silver levels makes sense for why they can knock em out cheaper. I shout a few rolls last year at box speed in the Xpan. The 100 seemed quite nice, 400 was a bit grainy but I must admit I never ran a direct comparison to HP5 or TriX. Still I printed a 10x27" print (scanned then printed by Ilfordlab) for my sister and it looked pretty decent. Film seemed to dry nice and flat too.
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