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  #1  
Old 26th February 2022, 02:59 PM
Nat Polton Nat Polton is offline
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Default Ilford Washing , 510Pyro , Silverprint

Bit of a jumbled title, but it covers everything when searching, I hope.

I have just been looking at the technical sheet available on the website of Silverprint, for 510 Pyro developer.
Lots of interesting information, but the one piece that caught my eye was the Ilford Washing article.
The usual fill,agitate, dump, but with a stand of 5 minutes before emptying at each successive step of the wash.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/05...f?v=1637020202


Take a look at "Wash" at the top of page 11.

I have never heard of the 5 minute stand, I simply empty the tank straight away, and then in with the next batch of water, but I do inversions of 2, 5, 10, 15, and 20.

Have I been doing it wrong all these years?

Does any one do the 5 minute stands?

Cheers.
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  #2  
Old 26th February 2022, 05:50 PM
snusmumriken snusmumriken is offline
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Here's the Ilford washing routine from their powder developer brochure:
<<For spiral tank use, when a non-hardening fixer has been used, the following method of washing is recommended. This method of washing is faster, uses less water yet still gives negatives suitable for long term storage.
After fixing, fill the spiral tank with water at the same temperature, +/- 5oC (9oF), as the processing solutions and invert it five times. Drain the water away and refill. Invert the tank ten times. Once more drain the water away and refill. Finally, invert the tank twenty times and drain the water away.>>

But did you read the bit about the brackets in the Zone Imaging leaflet?:
<<The part in brackets [i.e. the 5 minutes suggestion] is optional but was put forward by Ilford’s engineer that came up with this method as more archival, but it was written out for simplicity.>>
In other words, both belt and braces.
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  #3  
Old 26th February 2022, 05:57 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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I have never heard of leaving the water for 5 minutes, according to Ilford, fill the tank with water at 20, invert 5 times slowly, pour water out, repeat with 10 slow invertion's, dump water then 20 slow inversions, and I like to repeat with 40 inversion believe that the doubling of every change has a lot to do with iit, whatever it is it works, I have yet to lose a film due to bad washing
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Old 26th February 2022, 08:32 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
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It might be that Silverprint has added on the 3x5 minutes as a deliberate addition because it is 510 Pyro but if this is the case then there needs to be a vital difference between 510 Pyro in terms of ridding it of fixer compared to other developers, none of whom seem to need this. Well not as far as I know

The best way to get to the bottom of this would to be a query to Ilford asking if it regards 510 Pyro as requiring the addition of 3 x 5 minutes of diffusion via 3 stand periods and if it does why

Mike
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Old 26th February 2022, 09:20 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
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P.S. I have just watched the John Finch video on his semi-stand 510 Pyro development and he uses the normal Ilford 5,10,20 inversion without any diffusion 5 min stands

He doesn't even hint at it by mentioning something like: "Some users/ sources prefer in addition 5 mins stands

Mike
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Old 27th February 2022, 09:23 AM
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Bill Bill is offline
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For interest the 5 minute stand was mentioned in this post from a previous discussion on film washing. This was by Martin Aislabie.


Hi guys.

Something to ponder, perhaps.

As I plough my way through "The Film Developing Cookbook 2nd edition", I can across an interesting piece about the original Ilford film washing sequence.

The original paper by L.F.A. Mason, Ilfords chief researcher, stated that after the first 5 inversions, one should allow the tank to sit for 5 minutes before draining.

Then also repeat the 5 minutes sitting after the 10 and 20 inversion steps.

To finish, a final rinse in water with a few drops of wetting agent.

I'm not sure if Ilford did any further work on their film wash sequence, which resulted in it being modified but the book states that the 5 minute sitting was omitted in published work almost from the start.

I am also not sure if any of us follow the 5, 10 and 20 inversions sequence exactly.

From all of my discussions with fellow photographers, we all had a feeling that the 5,10,20 sequence was rather to short for comfort and those that did follow it added a few extra steps - just to make sure.

FWIW, I do a completely over the top washing sequence, which I have tested for residual Hypo and know it works.

I have no desire to change.

Martin”

Looks like it was discounted for simplicity.

BTW the data sheet referred to here is revision 4, they are now up to revision 10. The is from Zone Imaging who are a sponsor on a different forum.

Bill
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Old 27th February 2022, 06:23 PM
snusmumriken snusmumriken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
For interest the 5 minute stand was mentioned in this post from a previous discussion on film washing. This was by Martin Aislabie.


Hi guys.

Something to ponder, perhaps.

As I plough my way through "The Film Developing Cookbook 2nd edition", I can across an interesting piece about the original Ilford film washing sequence.

The original paper by L.F.A. Mason, Ilfords chief researcher, stated that after the first 5 inversions, one should allow the tank to sit for 5 minutes before draining.

Then also repeat the 5 minutes sitting after the 10 and 20 inversion steps.

To finish, a final rinse in water with a few drops of wetting agent.

I'm not sure if Ilford did any further work on their film wash sequence, which resulted in it being modified but the book states that the 5 minute sitting was omitted in published work almost from the start.

I am also not sure if any of us follow the 5, 10 and 20 inversions sequence exactly.

From all of my discussions with fellow photographers, we all had a feeling that the 5,10,20 sequence was rather to short for comfort and those that did follow it added a few extra steps - just to make sure.

FWIW, I do a completely over the top washing sequence, which I have tested for residual Hypo and know it works.

I have no desire to change.

Martin”

Looks like it was discounted for simplicity.

BTW the data sheet referred to here is revision 4, they are now up to revision 10. The is from Zone Imaging who are a sponsor on a different forum.

Bill
Really interesting, Bill, thanks for pointing that out. Does anyone have a copy of the Mason paper, or even a copy of his book 'Photographic Processing Chemistry' (I think 1979 may have been the last edition)?
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  #8  
Old 27th February 2022, 07:12 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
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Just as a point of interest, some U.S. posters on Photrio and an ex-Kodak engineer member there who has since died, are/were convinced that Ilford re-examined its washing procedure during the long dry summer of 1976 and decided that for its contribution to saving water it could risk eliminating the 5 min stands but none could actually point to a date after which the Ilford instructions made no mention of the 5 min stands

I lived in Liverpool then and frankly in the North West and probably most if not all of Scotland and probably Ireland and some of Wales did not have a total drought so the amount of extra water Ilford saved for home processors of its films in what remained of that 3 month dry spell would have been very marginal but it's a good story

Mike
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Old 28th February 2022, 12:33 PM
Terry S Terry S is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
...Ilford re-examined its washing procedure during the long dry summer of 1976 and decided that for its contribution to saving water it could risk eliminating the 5 min stands...

Mike
Mike, I'm a little confused.

How does eliminating the 5 minute stand save water? The water in / out of the stand procedure, is still the same amount of water used in the 5, 10, 20 inversion process...?

Terry S
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  #10  
Old 28th February 2022, 04:33 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
Mike, I'm a little confused.

How does eliminating the 5 minute stand save water? The water in / out of the stand procedure, is still the same amount of water used in the 5, 10, 20 inversion process...?

Terry S
It doesn't but the idea that a change occurred in Ilford's attitude towards its former method in 1976 chimes well with the famous drought.

It was I think a good story where there was no point in letting analysis get in the way

Mike
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