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  #11  
Old 14th February 2022, 02:23 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Originally Posted by Nat Polton View Post
Terry
I think it may have been me that mentioned the gas composition in Tetenal.
According to their data sheet it is/was a mixture of propane and butane.
One advertiser had the nerve to advertise it as "The safer alternative to using lighter fuel gas."

You are not trying to fill a lighter with liquid butane, you only want a small amount of gas.
If the can is held upside down liquid butane streams out. Hold the can upright and a slower, more controlled stream of gas flows out.
Lasts longer as less is lost to the atmosphere. The atmosphere wins and so does your wallet.

A warning was raised in one of the photo magazines in the 70s or 80s about using air duster cans of gas if held upside down.
They tended to fire out the gas as a liquid if upside down. As the evaporation of the gas caused rapid cooling, people found their glass lenses cracking.
Later more expensive cans were sold as invertible during use.

Cheers.
Ah, okay, I knew someone probably on here may have mentioned the composition. It's interesting what you don't know when you don't look! As for advertisers, the will say all sorts of things, often on the border line of lying, but if they can get away with it, they will.

I'm still a bit unsure about only tilting the can, rather holding it upside down. To make the gas come out there is also, as far as I know, a propellant gas in tins as well. So by not turning it upside down, I believe that you may get SOME butane to come out, but the propellant will exit at the same time. The end effect is that the propellant will run out before the e.g. butane does and you will be left with a tin of butane that can't escape because there is no propellant left to push it out of the tin. It also depends upon the length of the thin tube in the tin, which I imagine to be short and i.e. will expel what ever is closest to it, so having the tin on its side, a mixture of both will be expelled.

I could be wrong but it makes one wonder why the manufacturer would tell you to use it in a certain way otherwise...?

Terry S
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  #12  
Old 14th February 2022, 02:40 PM
snusmumriken snusmumriken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
I'm still a bit unsure about only tilting the can, rather holding it upside down. To make the gas come out there is also, as far as I know, a propellant gas in tins as well. So by not turning it upside down, I believe that you may get SOME butane to come out, but the propellant will exit at the same time. The end effect is that the propellant will run out before the e.g. butane does and you will be left with a tin of butane that can't escape because there is no propellant left to push it out of the tin. It also depends upon the length of the thin tube in the tin, which I imagine to be short and i.e. will expel what ever is closest to it, so having the tin on its side, a mixture of both will be expelled.

I could be wrong but it makes one wonder why the manufacturer would tell you to use it in a certain way otherwise...?

Terry S
Terry, isn't it the case that if you are filling a lighter, you are trying to transfer the butane as a liquid, keeping the conjoined lighter/canister as a pressurised system? The liquid butane will naturally be at the lower end of the canister, so you need to invert the canister to drop it into the lighter. In our usage, you are releasing (some) gas without the pressure constraint. A very little liquid makes an awful lot of gas.

I'd be surprised if there was any propellant in those canisters other then the butane itself.
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  #13  
Old 14th February 2022, 02:45 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Originally Posted by snusmumriken View Post
Terry, isn't it the case that if you are filling a lighter, you are trying to transfer the butane as a liquid, keeping the conjoined lighter/canister as a pressurised system? The liquid butane will naturally be at the lower end of the canister, so you need to invert the canister to drop it into the lighter. In our usage, you are releasing (some) gas without the pressure constraint. A very little liquid makes an awful lot of gas.

I'd be surprised if there was any propellant in those canisters other then the butane itself.
I don't know totally to be honest, I'm just stating what makes sense to me. I just wonder why the manufacturer states to hold the tin upside down rather than upright or on its side to use it?...

It's probably not advisable, but I wonder if it's SAFELY possible to open a tin once it is empty?

Terry S
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Old 14th February 2022, 03:54 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Thanks Terry for some reason when reading your post I had assumed that the problem canisters were not the one from the "Argon" seller I may need to read more slowly

It's a real pity about those but, I agree, there is nothing worse that the uncertainty of never knowing if the next set of cans are going to be OK

Mike
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  #15  
Old 14th February 2022, 04:21 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Well, after much looking, I have found the following link about aerosols. The bits that are important to this thread are here, although I find the first half of the first sentence a bit confusing. It's interesting to note that one should NOT shake a can of lighter fuel aerosol before use, so I need to get out of the habit of doing so, as it is something that I have always done out of habit!:

Do You Shake Butane Before Filling?

While shaking a deodorant spray or an air freshener before refilling a butane lighter is acceptable, it is not acceptable to shake a can of butane before refilling a butane lighter! The amount of propellant in the mixture that goes into the lighter tank is increased by shaking the can.

Why Can’t I Refill My Butane Lighter?

Troubleshooting: If you’re experiencing trouble with your lighter, make sure you’re replacing it upside down. There will be air within the butane tank if you did not hold the lighter upside down. You’ll need to let some air out before refilling.

https://www.utilitysmarts.com/gas/bu...Before_Filling

Terry S
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  #16  
Old 14th February 2022, 04:27 PM
MikeHeller MikeHeller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
It's probably not advisable, but I wonder if it's SAFELY possible to open a tin once it is empty?

Terry S
You could puncture them outside when empty and then crush them. I have a thing that screws into a camping gas canister for puncturing them that I have used in the past before putting them through a can crusher (foot operated) and into the recycle bin. And yes I shake the filler bottle before filling a lighter and warm it up in my hands.

Mike

Last edited by MikeHeller; 14th February 2022 at 04:33 PM.
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  #17  
Old 14th February 2022, 05:41 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
. It's interesting to note that one should NOT shake a can of lighter fuel aerosol before use, so I need to get out of the habit of doing so, as it is something that I have always done out of habit!:

Terry S
Any mention of whether this might also apply to my cans of nitro-glycerin

Mike
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  #18  
Old 14th February 2022, 05:48 PM
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Martin Aislabie Martin Aislabie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nat Polton View Post
Terry

A warning was raised in one of the photo magazines in the 70s or 80s about using air duster cans of gas if held upside down.
They tended to fire out the gas as a liquid if upside down. As the evaporation of the gas caused rapid cooling, people found their glass lenses cracking.
Later more expensive cans were sold as invertible during use.

Cheers.
The Dust Off gas sold in those canisters was Freon (R12) - the stuff they used to put in car air conditioning systems.

It has a boiling point of about -37C under 1 atmosphere.

So, not only could it inflict severe frostbite to the user but it would then rise in to the atmosphere and burn a hole in the ozone layer as well.

We all knew about the ozone destruction when we were using R12 - but not many people cared enough about it - thank goodness times have changed.

Martin
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  #19  
Old 14th February 2022, 09:38 PM
snusmumriken snusmumriken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
... shaking a deodorant spray or an air freshener before refilling a butane lighter is acceptable ...
I'm relieved about that. It's nice to stay fresh when doing dirty work.
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  #20  
Old 15th February 2022, 07:02 AM
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Argon can be had in small cannisters intended for small-scale welding - but be careful that you order Argon only as the same canisters come with a mixture of Argon and CO2 too. You need a pressure regulator valve too and suitable tubing to carry the gas (any old plastic tube that fits will do - once it has left the regulator, it is at low pressure). B&Q used to stock them but I have only seen the argon/co2 mixtures in there recently. You do not want CO2 in your chemicals - it will acidify them.

I have reverted to butane as it's just less faffing about (even the small argon cylinders are heavy and awkward to hold). I 3D printed a cap for the lighter gas you get in Tesco so I can use it without freezing my fingers (I lack Nat's ingenuity and tend to throw technology at any problem ). As already mentioned, to get the gas you hold the canister upright; to fill your lighter, you use it upside down to transfer the liquefied butane to the lighter. The interesting point of that for us is that someone here (sorry I forget who ) pointed out that giving the chemical bottle a quick burst of the liquid at the end will mean that it will fill the bottle with gas as it evaporates, ensuring that the air-space at the top is completely filled with the gas - also gives you a second or two to get the cap on as it evaporates. Genius!

Last edited by Bob; 15th February 2022 at 07:34 AM.
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