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Old 20th November 2017, 01:42 PM
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pentaxpete pentaxpete is offline
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Default First Try at 'Selenium Toning'

I was given a 1 litre bottle of 'Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner'. I just tried it for the first time on some rather light prints on old MG IV Pearl -- I read the instruction label --I tried the 1+20 dilution, soaked the MGIV prints in water, put them into the 'stinky acrid toner' in a dish which I rushed out into the Garden before WIFE smelled it then picked up prints with Tongs so i didn't get Selenium on skin BUT I could not see any difference !
Toner is supposed to increase D-Max of prints , but it didn't.
Any members got any 'Tips' please ?
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Old 20th November 2017, 02:34 PM
alexmuir alexmuir is offline
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Hi, Pete. I have found that this type of toner works best at 20C. Even then, it can take quite a long time before a change in the image occurs. Some papers don’t show much of a reaction. I haven’t had great success with Ilford Multigrade RC papers. Fibre based papers seem to work better. I don’t know if anyone else has this issue, but I’ve noticed a deterioration in the surface of RC materials after toning. This is despite extensive washing. I suspect the lengthy wet times are not good for this type of paper.
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Old 20th November 2017, 02:58 PM
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Hi Alex, what kind of surface detoriation?

Pentaxpete, Multigrade IV FB reacts, but in a slow manner. Not sure about the RC. Best to compare untoned and toned prints side by side.
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Old 20th November 2017, 03:08 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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I've had the same problems with RC papers, especialy Ilford RC papers I just can't see any difference even after extensive toning. I have left prints in the toner for up to 30 minutes without seeing any difference, at least to my eyes, 2 papers I have seen changes in were Fotospeed RCVC and Kentmere, with FB papers it is another story, I have seen Ilford MG Classic and the Adox MCC go a nice plumb colour after toning for a while, With RC papers that work O have found that having 2 prints side by side helps, one in the toner and one in a water bath, you can then see the slight changes in the print in the toner, the only value I can see for toning RC papers is perhaps increase the longtivity of the print, but I don't really like selinium toner, it stinks the house out, much to my wife's annoyance, and you need to tone for quite a while to get a difference, and sometimes keeping it to 20C can be a problem,
Richard
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Old 20th November 2017, 03:25 PM
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Hi, Miha. The surface looks like it has a ‘bloom’. That is on the glossy RC paper I normally use. I notice when washing it that it has a different feel to the same paper, processed, but not toned. It is as if the toner adheres to the surface and is difficult to wash out. It may be my local water that is to blame. It is quite soft. I had stopped toning RC papers as a result, but tried again last week, with the same result. I may try adding a wetting agent to the wash to see if that helps.
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:15 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
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Pete, I wonder if Ilford selenium works better with Ilford RC

On a more serious note and as a Scotsman, the price of selenium toner seems quite high for stuff that stinks and doesn't do a lot. I have heard the wife express similar sentiments about something in her life but as I have never bought this toner it could not have been that. Whatever it was she obviously had many years experience of it.

Returning from my comic stint at the end of the pier once more, I recall seeing "before and after" pictures of selenium toning in one of my photography books. It was not a dedicated toning book, I should add, and the difference was very marginal.

Mike
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:24 PM
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Ian Marsh Ian Marsh is offline
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standard Ilford MG RC papers dont react much. The Ilford MG RC Warmtone paper does show a noticable change.
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:30 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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Selenium toners really work their best with warm tone papers where the effects are quite substantial. It only reallt smells of ammonia when freshly made up, you add fresh toner to the working solution every so often it lasts many years that way.

You'll see little effects with MGIV, there will be a slight increase in Dmax barely visible but increased permanence.

Any surface effects "bloom" are most likely due to surface micro reticulation of the gelatin super-coat due to changes in temperature during various steps, drying with some heat (use a hair dryer) will restore the surface so will careful steaming. It can happen with FB paperspapers as well, it's also the cause of excessive apparent graininess with films.

Ian
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Old 20th November 2017, 05:27 PM
Tony Marlow Tony Marlow is offline
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You don't get a colour change at 1:20 at this dilution you get a deeper black and it does clean up the print . If you compare with an untoned Ilford MG print it gets rid of the slight greenish tinge but you need to compare a toned print with an untoned
one. At 1+19 I usually give it 3 to 5 mins. To get a colour change you need to go to 1+9 or 1+4.
I have not found the smell a problem, the neat toner does have strong ammonia smell but but soon becomes quite small once diluted nothing as strong or unpleasant as sulphide toners.
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Old 20th November 2017, 09:31 PM
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Hi Pete.
Selenium toning is worth mastering. It appears that the idea it improved archival qualities was wrong. For that, you really want a sulphide toner. However, selenium can really enhance image quality.
Depends on concentration, time, temp and paper.
On Ilford multigrade it will deepen blacks but (I think) even better it brings up hidden detail in high key areas. The only paper I didn't like it on was MG Warmtone matte finish, where I can only describe the colour of deep shadows as 'poopy'.

Some papers 'split'- the old Agfa papers would tone really well in the shadows, but the highlights barely shifted.

I use mostly fibre papers, but have had really good results on RC as well. On MG fibre my routine would be;
Soak a well washed print in clean, warm water. Dunk into Selenium toner at 1+9. Rock the tray steadily and keep watching the print. You want good light, and an untoned print on the same paper close by as a reference. Nothing happens, nothing happens, then the shadows will take up a deep almost purple hue, then midtones. Finally the highlights will begin to show more detail and texture.
Pull the print and wash thoroughly, using your routine for washing freshly fixed prints.

You can re-use the toner, but you'll start to see bits of dark scum in it. I pass it through a coffee filter paper to strain out any gloop.
Smell? Yes, a bit.

If you're not seeing any difference in your prints, PM me an address and I'll fire you a couple of 'before and after samples' to compare your results to.
Cheers!
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