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Old 6th October 2019, 06:05 PM
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DaveInElland DaveInElland is offline
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Default Using a sulphite bath

Reading Michael’s “Bergger” post led me to read their recommended processing sheet which includes the following:

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A rinse in a sulphite bath (10 %) will allow to eliminate the chemicals complexes resulting from fix bath, and also allow the full dissolution of the anti-halation layer.
This isn’t something I’ve ever done, is it something that others do and if so are the benefits purely a reduction in washing required or are there other benefits too?

TIA
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveInElland View Post
Reading Michael’s “Bergger” post led me to read their recommended processing sheet which includes the following:



This isn’t something I’ve ever done, is it something that others do and if so are the benefits purely a reduction in washing required or are there other benefits too?

TIA
It's pretty much the same as Hypo Clearing Agent.(the Kodak Name, other makers use different names) You can use sulphite in place of HCA, I use HCA as it can be hard to get raw chemichels over here now, but in the past I have used Sulphite, I would use around a tablesponful to a liter of water, worked fine, I have never used it for film, I prefer the Ilford wash method, but I do use it when printing on FB paper,
Richard
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:20 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is online now
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I have never done this either for film or for paper. Mind you I use RC exclusively. For FB the evidence suggests that it is worthwhile in terms of appreciably reducing wash times

Mike
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:23 PM
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I think it is referring to Kodak Hypo Clear, or similar wash aid products. You wash the film in water for a few minutes, then soak in the product, followed by a short wash. It reduces wash times if you use the method of washing in running water. The alternative washing procedure is referred to as the ‘Ilford method’, where you fill and empty the tank successively, agitating each time. This uses much less water, and saves time. With that method, I don’t use Hypo Clear.
I have to say that I have negatives made 30 years ago, washed in running water for 30 mins or less, without strict temperature control or wash aid that still look fine.
I think if I was minded to ensure the permenance of my negatives, I would be more strict about my washing procedure. If, however, your photography is purely a hobby (like mine), then simpler procedures might suffice.
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:32 PM
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Having seen the original thread about the Bergger film, I think I can say that the sulphite bath won’t alter the image quality. The anti-halation layer should come out during the processing and washing. I’ve never heard of Hypo Clear, or similar, being required for that purpose.
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:39 PM
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Dave, I did buy Sodium sulphite from the supplier here in Ireland, along with my film. As Richard and Alex both say, it has the same use really as HCA. I found 10% a bit steep but have now used two small plastic teaspoonsful per 250ml water, just poured into the tank immediately after the second fix and left for 3 minutes without agitation - followed by a normal Ilford cycle for washing. We're talking film here.

I've used HCA with paper but never been entirely confident about measuring out small quantities from a Kodak packet, as the powder mix may not be consistent throughout the pack. Sodium sulphite, as a simple product, worries me less in that respect and I may move over to it too with paper.

I did one roll of Pancro by the book and felt a right eejit. Happy enough with what I outline above, though.
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Old 6th October 2019, 07:52 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
Dave, I did buy Sodium sulphite from the supplier here in Ireland, along with my film. As Richard and Alex both say, it has the same use really as HCA. I found 10% a bit steep but have now used two small plastic teaspoonsful per 250ml water, just poured into the tank immediately after the second fix and left for 3 minutes without agitation - followed by a normal Ilford cycle for washing. We're talking film here.

I've used HCA with paper but never been entirely confident about measuring out small quantities from a Kodak packet, as the powder mix may not be consistent throughout the pack. Sodium sulphite, as a simple product, worries me less in that respect and I may move over to it too with paper.

I did one roll of Pancro by the book and felt a right eejit. Happy enough with what I outline above, though.
With HCA I mix the whole packet as per the Kodak instructions then dilute 1/4, that is 200ml of HCA to 800 ml water, use for the printing session then discard, I find that the concentrate keeps well, I don't think you need either HVA or sulphite for film, especialy if you use gthe Ilford method, of film washing, I fill the tank with water,at 20 or above, invert 5 times, empty then refill and invert 10 times, then repeat with 20 inversions, slow inversions, but even with running water wash 20 minutes is fine, I have negatives made 60 years ago using water wash for anything from 10 to 30 minutes and they are fine, remember that film base, like RC paper, does not absorb the fixer, and the anti halation layer normally comes out with the developer, at least, with Fomapan and Rpdinal it does, which is why often the developer changes colour (In my case a sick green)
Richard
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Old 6th October 2019, 08:21 PM
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Thanks everyone! Back in the 70s when I started I only used Tri-X or HP5 with Ilford (Ilfosol?) film developer. Simples!

On returning to the fold in 2015 and more particularly now, I find that there are a plethora of different options for every single variable from film to developer and through the whole process. Just shows the difference t’internet makes - back then I only knew what I could glean from library books or reading AP in WHSmiths!
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Old 6th October 2019, 10:54 PM
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Sodium Sulphite or HCA hs little to no effect with films or RC papers unless you are grossly overloading your fixer.

It's far more beneficial with Fibre based papers where intermediary Silver/Thiosuphate complexes form weak bonds with the cellulose of the paper base.

Somewhere I have a 40+ year old schematic I drew up of the equilibrium reactions involved, and you'd need to be a degree level chemist to undersatnd what's going on.

Basically as the Silver level builds up in the fixer it becomes less efficient, and not all the Silver halide/Thiosulphate reactions go to completion, adding the Sulphite helps take the reaction towards completion.

Best practice is two bath fixing with FB papers.

Ian
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Old 7th October 2019, 06:37 AM
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Thanks Ian. That’s very useful. I shall keep it in mind when I test out some fibre based papers. I’ve been using RC recently but a fellow photographer has offered me a small quantity of FB paper to play with so your advice is very timely.

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