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Old 22nd January 2013, 05:51 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Default Ilford MGIV Paper - Developer Incorporated?

A thread on another forum has prompted me to ask if someone here with access to washing soda can try the following:

Expose a neg on the above RC paper and simply place it in washing soda at about 1/4 teaspoon per 2 fluid ozs of water. What happens?

I don't have any soda but there was a long thread on its use to increase Dmax so hopefully some here will still have it.

It was claimed by some elsewhere that MGIV does have some incorporated dev although Simon Galley of Ilford denies it. These diametrically opposed positions may simply be based on different definitions of what constitutes an incorporated developer but be that what it may.

What I found frustrating was that the thread on the other forum became very academic and none who claimed that washing soda worked showed any examples

Anyone willing to give it a go? I am sure it won't replace MGIV dev but to what extent if at all does it work? I am assuming that the image at best is incredibly weak

Thanks to anyone willing to satisfy my curiosity.

Mike
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Old 22nd January 2013, 07:25 PM
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Roy_H Roy_H is offline
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Here's a pool of sodium carbonate (washing soda) on a bit of Multigrade IV RC paper.

Went black as soon as the white light was turned on.
What were Ilford saying...?
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Old 22nd January 2013, 07:42 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Thanks Roy. This suggests that it is dev incorporated and is even stronger than others were claiming it was. If it is that black does it give a full normal looking image from an exposed neg?
Did you use the washing soda at about the dilution I had mentioned?

Mike
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Old 22nd January 2013, 08:48 PM
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I'll give it a try with a properly exposed print next time I'm in the darkroom Mike. Concentration of washing soda was about what you indicated.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 11:06 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Thanks Roy. Anyone else fancy a go as well?

Mike
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Old 22nd January 2013, 11:25 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is offline
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A Developer incoprated paper needs no developing agents at all just an Alkaline solution usually Hydroxide base. I used to use an Ilfoprint machine with the original Ilfospeed paper and home made activator.

It's possible to have a lower level of developer insufficient for full development under normal conditions.

When Ilford updated Ilfospeed it would still partially devlop in activator but the image was very weak.

Ian
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Old 22nd January 2013, 11:42 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Thanks Ian. I look forward to Roy's findings.Roy,based on what Ian says just use a small sheet or part sheet please. It sounds as if the blackness you got may not translate into a full range of tones in an exposed print but this whole thing has really got me curious.

Mike
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Old 26th January 2013, 10:48 PM
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Pretty much confirming Ian's comment about there being insufficient developing agent contained in these papers for full development in alkali alone, three of the four prints here are made with increasing exposure and 'developed' in a 10% sodium carbonate decahydrate solution to completion. No change occurred after about 1 minute at 20°C.



So, despite what may be claimed, there is obviously a small amount of developing agent incorporated in the Multigrade IV emulsion (probably phenidone?) but once it's exhausted that's it. Increasing exposure just results in an increase in overall fog.

My recent experiments with Slavich Bromportrait for lith indicate that that also has a developer incorporated. So anyone planning on using it for lith work should wash the exposed print in running water for about 3 minutes prior to lith development. There is a noticeable difference in image colour if this step is omitted, although it still 'liths' well.
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Old 27th January 2013, 12:39 AM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Thanks Roy. Nothing to do with us on FADU but I can only conclude that Simon Galley of Ilford has either been fed the wrong info about MGIV's incorporation of developer or he is working to a different definition of what constitutes " developer incorporated"

If he is working to a different definition then his denial of there being any "developer incorporated" element to MGIV smacks of a kind of "legal" speak which doesn't really help his "open and honest" stand with questions raised on the other forum.

Mike
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Old 27th January 2013, 12:36 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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Interesting results Roy of a test that I was going to do when next in the darkroom, although it hasn't put me off enough NOT to try it for myself anyway!

If so little developer IS incorporated in the Ilford or any other paper for that matter, what is the actual point for it being there at all? What does it actually do if it lasts so short a time when in a properly diluted developer solution???

And not having got around to doing Lith yet (I MUST! I MUST! I MUST!), again what difference does it make when the print is potentially in a developer solution for so long???

REALLY simple explanations please as I (and others) are not chemists on this forum.

Many thanks in advance,

Terry S
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