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  #1  
Old 28th August 2015, 10:28 AM
Ansel Ansel is offline
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Default Water bath OK before selenium toning?

Hi there,

About to do a run of prints and then finish by toning in Selenium for optimum print protection by diluting KODAK SELENIUM toner with ILFORD WASHAID and immersing for 3 minutes following the fixing stage, as per ILFORD/KODAK recommendations.

Basic sequence would therefore be:

Dev --> Stop --> Fix --> Toning (in KRST/WASHAID) ---> Final wash.

All good up to here.

My question is:

Is it OK to stack prints in a water holding tray prior to the Toning stage (i.e. after fixing)?

This is something I typically do during a normal print sequence prior to hypo/washing stage as my print washer will hold up to 10 prints at a time...

OK to do so prior to toning or will it add stains to the final print?
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Old 28th August 2015, 01:25 PM
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dsallen dsallen is offline
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First off, Ansel Adam’s recommendation of mixing Selenium Toner with Hypo-Clear has largely been abandoned for many reasons including the fact that the Hypo-Clear will cease to be effective long before the Selenium.

The most common cause of stains in my experience is insufficient washing before toning.

What works for me is having two holding trays: One with Hypo-Clear and one with plain water. I place the print in the Hypo-Clear for 10 minutes with very little agitation (so I can get on making the next print) and then transfer to the second plain water holding tray until the end of the printing session. I then give all of the prints a 15 minute wash in the tray with constantly changing water and rotating the prints (I used to take the prints from the Hypo-Clear and place in my archival washer but that is not possible in my current darkroom).

After this washing sequence, I set up three trays:
  • Holding tray with plain water for the prints to sit in prior to toning.
  • Tray with Selenium toner.
  • Tray with Hypo-Clear
I then tone the prints in Selenium toner one at a time and then place them in the Hypo-Clear. After the last print has been toned and placed in the Hypo-Clear, I then agitate the Hypo-Clear tray for 5 minutes and then place them directly in my archival print washer.

Hope this helps.

Bests,

David.
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Old 28th August 2015, 03:02 PM
Alan Clark Alan Clark is offline
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About 30 years ago I attended a John Blakemore workshop, and asked him what his working method was regarding selenium toning. He replied that his prints went through a full wash cycle after fixing. They were then selenium toned, and washed for another full cycle. At the time this struck me as being a little over the top. I knew from experience that insufficient washing after fixing and before selenium toning could lead to staining, so my own method was to simply keep prints in a holding bath until the end of the session,then "give them a good wash" before selenium toning them. They were then given a full wash cycle. And this seemed to work. I've still got quite a few 30 year old prints, on the old Record Rapid paper, done like this. And they look fine.
Then about 10 years ago I changed my working method. Three things brought this about. I acquired a much bigger darkroom so I had room for more dishes. I started using wash-aid to speed up the washing process. And I started using Ilford Warmtone fibre paper. Selenium can have a big effect on this paper, increasing the contrast and darkening the shadows. If you leave the selenium toning until the end of the print session this can catch you out, and leave you with prints that are not quite right. So I started to selenium tone each print individually, as part of the process, before going on to the next print This means that if a selenium toned print doesn't come out right, you can do another print whilst the negative is still in the enlarger. Here is the process in detail.
When a print comes out of the fixer I place it in an empty dish, pour about a pint of fresh water on it and agitate for about a minute. I reckon that this gets rid of quite a lot of fixer. After dumping the water I pour hypo-clear onto the print and agitate for another minute, before pouring the hypo-clear back in its jug ready for the next print Then I remove the print and place it in a bath of Selenium Toner. The hypo-clear prevents staining. After toning the print goes back in the empty dish and is washed for another minute with another pint of fresh water. It is then placed in a holding bath of hypo-clear, and at the end of the session the prints are given their final wash.

This method may seem a little slow, but I'm content to do a small number of prints as well as I can, rather than go for quantity. And working like this helps me to get the best I can out of Ilford Warmtone fibre paper, which responds beautifully to selenium toning, when you get the initial print density and contrast right.

Alan
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Old 28th August 2015, 04:12 PM
Ansel Ansel is offline
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Thanks folks. Interesting to read about your experiences and workflows...

I am going to proceed on the basis its safe to place the prints in a holding bath prior to the toning/washaid bath. Thanks

I am a bit pressed for space and can house the water bath in the darkroom but toning will have to take place outside prior to washing. As I am only toning for permanence and not image tone this should work out OK for me. Using the new Ilford MGFB Classic paper so no change of image tone expected, as per Ilford literature.
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Old 28th August 2015, 06:37 PM
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Just to introduce a spanner to the works-
Silverprint had some very interesting articles on Archival toning. The short version is, Selenium can enhance contrast and Dmax, and makes some papers really sing, but is actually very INeffective as an archival agent.
Sulphide toners are better, but incur more dramatic colour changes (which some of like, luckily).
Even more problematic, it might be the case that tiny amounts of residual fix act like a sulphide toner and washing too thoroughly might harm prints.
I'm trying to find the links, but Silverprint keeping messing with their site. Will link if I can find the relevant material.

ps- With regard to your original question- I wash thoroughly, tone, then repeat the full wash cycle.
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Old 28th August 2015, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsallen View Post
The most common cause of stains in my experience is insufficient washing before toning.
+1

There are certain fixers which will react with selenium and leave stains. Always best to give a full long wash before toning. Or at least test before committing real prints by usng same chemicals and process you will use for real prints.
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Last edited by Argentum; 28th August 2015 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 28th August 2015, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skellum View Post
Just to introduce a spanner to the works-
Silverprint had some very interesting articles on Archival toning. The short version is, Selenium can enhance contrast and Dmax, and makes some papers really sing, but is actually very INeffective as an archival agent.
Sulphide toners are better, but incur more dramatic colour changes (which some of like, luckily).
Even more problematic, it might be the case that tiny amounts of residual fix act like a sulphide toner and washing too thoroughly might harm prints.
I'm trying to find the links, but Silverprint keeping messing with their site. Will link if I can find the relevant material.

ps- With regard to your original question- I wash thoroughly, tone, then repeat the full wash cycle.
Tim Rudman has stated in one his books I think that for Selenium to be fully archival you need to tone your print to completion which means it won't go darker or change colour any more. Unfortunately this is only achievable using stronger selenium maybe 1+9 and that will usually give a very strong and often undesireable colour change.

Use selinium for aesthetic effect and then use Tetenal Stabinal which I think is very similar if the not the same as the old Agfa Sistan which coats the print in "something" stable from oxidation.

http://www.tetenaluk.com/products/da...0-5-litre.html

Having said that, there are plenty 100 year old images that still look good today that weren't toned in sulphide, selenium or sistan/stabinal.

Providing a print is properly washed then its potential life is very long. The biggest caveat is the environmental conditions its kept in and you have no control over how one of your prints in a probably less than 50 years will be kept so even if you do everything you can, if someone then hangs it above a radiator in the bathroom it will probably only last 5 years, if that, due to constant wild humidity swings combined with constant heating and cooling and drying out and becoming damp again when someone has a shower.

So archival only really means "I given it the potential to live for x years" but it might not if it isn't kept in perfect conditions (which only the top galleries do by keeping constant temp, huidity and filtering all UV from light).
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Last edited by Argentum; 28th August 2015 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 28th August 2015, 11:18 PM
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dsallen dsallen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansel View Post
Thanks folks. Interesting to read about your experiences and workflows...

I am going to proceed on the basis its safe to place the prints in a holding bath prior to the toning/washaid bath. Thanks

I am a bit pressed for space and can house the water bath in the darkroom but toning will have to take place outside prior to washing. As I am only toning for permanence and not image tone this should work out OK for me. Using the new Ilford MGFB Classic paper so no change of image tone expected, as per Ilford literature.
I do not think that you have my (or indeed others) advice understood - a holding bath of plain water will lead (in most circumstances) to staining with Selenium Toner. You must wash thoroughly before Selenium toning if you wish to avoid staining. Fact.

Bests,

David.
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Old 30th August 2015, 05:00 PM
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I will add that you need to use selium in a well ventilated room.

When I'm in the mood for the extra work to archive my prints In AG stab.
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Old 31st August 2015, 02:59 PM
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Adrian Twiss Adrian Twiss is offline
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Having been a victim of selenium staining I have chosen a rather ponderous toning regime. My process flow is

develop>stop>fix>rinse>hypo clear>wash(45min)>tone>rinse>hypo clear>wash(60 minutes).

Many will say this is over the top but I have found that provided my chemicals are reasonably fresh I get no selenium staining.

I mainly print on Ilford Multigrade IV which does not change colour in Selenium.
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