Printing Paper Prices

[Mike O'Pray]

I base my unhappiness on paper price increases on the period during which I was introduced to the darkroom. I enrolled on a Night-school course in January 2003 and bought some Ilford paper from Jessops. At that stage I had no yardstick with which to compare prices, being "new to the game" as they say. In mid to late 2003 I set up my darkroom and then seriously looked at prices. I noticed that in the 5-6 years between mid 2003 and early 2009 paper prices seemed to fall. In that period Ilford closed and re-opened as Harman and yet for 3 years from the re-opening prices still fell for a period and then at least stabilised.

It may be that Harman, to ensure it was able to establish itself, post the Ilford collapse, kept its prices lower than it should have and took a risk with less than healthy profits. Then in the recession post the banking crisis and large silver price increase it had to increase prices to stay afloat and make up for "under- pricing" for the years in which Harman was re-established post the Ilford collapse

So this is a possible scenario but it was a pity that Harman in the form of Simon Galley seemed to blame most of the increase in the silver price increase since not unnaturally this led consumers such as myself to think that removal of the cause, namely silver price increase, might result in some price relief further down the road.

Anyway all water under the bridge now. Hopefully in what is now the Pemberstone era we can look forward to at least some "steadiness" in pricing.

Mike

[Lostlabours]

A number of retailers do offer discounts to students, universities, colleges etc so it's not unreasonable to expect the same discounts to be given to people buying large volumes of film. paper, chemistry etc.

In fact I was given that discount when I visited an Ilford dealer when saying with an APUG/FADU member about 3 years ago. It's worth asking.

Ian

[Tony Marlow]

The one thing that would be a much bigger problem than expensive film and paper would be no paper or film at all. Ilford are the rock of our material supplies giving quality, reliability, consistancy and availability and if they went out of business the future of film photography would be bleak indeed. I suspect that it wouldn't just be Ilford products that would disappear as I believe they coat for other brand names. I am sure information on the profitability of Ilford and the remuneration of it's directors is available and no doubt someone on the forum would know where to look but as Mat says I suspect that Ilford are not a goldmine lining the pockets of the few unlike some of our financial institutions. I think it is vital that we continue to support Ilford. One balancing effect has been that the prices of cameras and equipment has never been so low and we are able to buy at silly prices gear which was originally way out of our reach. Just hope it all has a very long life.
As far as exchange rates go they have always been wildly eratic and no doubt the pound will rise again in the forseeable future.
Tony

[Matt5791]

Originally Posted by Lostlabours

A number of retailers do offer discounts to students, universities, colleges etc so it's not unreasonable to expect the same discounts to be given to people buying large volumes of film. paper, chemistry etc.

In fact I was given that discount when I visited an Ilford dealer when saying with an APUG/FADU member about 3 years ago. It's worth asking.

Ian

Definitely worth asking Ian - the problem is there is often very little to give away. Our margin on ilford film was in the teens.

Originally Posted by Tony Marlow

The one thing that would be a much bigger problem than expensive film and paper would be no paper or film at all. Ilford are the rock of our material supplies giving quality, reliability, consistancy and availability and if they went out of business the future of film photography would be bleak indeed. I suspect that it wouldn't just be Ilford products that would disappear as I believe they coat for other brand names. I am sure information on the profitability of Ilford and the remuneration of it's directors is available and no doubt someone on the forum would know where to look but as Mat says I suspect that Ilford are not a goldmine lining the pockets of the few unlike some of our financial institutions. I think it is vital that we continue to support Ilford. One balancing effect has been that the prices of cameras and equipment has never been so low and we are able to buy at silly prices gear which was originally way out of our reach. Just hope it all has a very long life.
As far as exchange rates go they have always been wildly eratic and no doubt the pound will rise again in the forseeable future.
Tony

I think that's a level headed view Tony! If Ilford disappeared, it would be a very serious situation - something like that could be a significant "threat" to my business (as would Kodak ceasing production of film, equally serious because it could knock the confidence and revival in analogue). Harman is really a very generous organisation run by enthusiasts. Considering how specialist the products are, and the comparison to fine art inkjet, I really think the prices are very reasonable.

Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray

I base my unhappiness on paper price increases on the period during which I was introduced to the darkroom. I enrolled on a Night-school course in January 2003 and bought some Ilford paper from Jessops. At that stage I had no yardstick with which to compare prices, being "new to the game" as they say. In mid to late 2003 I set up my darkroom and then seriously looked at prices. I noticed that in the 5-6 years between mid 2003 and early 2009 paper prices seemed to fall. In that period Ilford closed and re-opened as Harman and yet for 3 years from the re-opening prices still fell for a period and then at least stabilised.

It may be that Harman, to ensure it was able to establish itself, post the Ilford collapse, kept its prices lower than it should have and took a risk with less than healthy profits. Then in the recession post the banking crisis and large silver price increase it had to increase prices to stay afloat and make up for "under- pricing" for the years in which Harman was re-established post the Ilford collapse

So this is a possible scenario but it was a pity that Harman in the form of Simon Galley seemed to blame most of the increase in the silver price increase since not unnaturally this led consumers such as myself to think that removal of the cause, namely silver price increase, might result in some price relief further down the road.

Anyway all water under the bridge now. Hopefully in what is now the Pemberstone era we can look forward to at least some "steadiness" in pricing.

Mike

I hear everything you say Mike and I think there is probably a lot of truth in your theory, but, of late, Ilford have not changed their prices for ages - maybe 3 years now? I could check. Of course there are variations in what the dealers will sell out at, as there is with any product. This comes down to many factors. It's very easy to underestimate in business just how much margin you need to pay all the bills and turn some sort of a profit at the end - or end up as a statistic. If I'm honest, I think Ilford will have to increase prices in the near on paper, I don't think it's sustainable at the current level.

But please everyone, look at how the costs of traditional printing square up against the alternatives, such as high end digital printing - traditional is really very good value, considering everything. I know that some people would argue you use more paper in the darkroom, but our lab business does have a fine art inkjet service in addition to silver halide, with a 12 ink Canon blah, blah, blah - it can get massively expensive and you regularly re-print images. I'm now told ink can go up to £5-£7 a square meter (inc vat) in a machine like ours where we buy it in 350ml or 750ml cartridges. Probably a lot more on smaller machines with smaller carts. So that's £21-£23 / square meter for any fine art paper like Hahnemulhe, Canson etc etc. compared to £16/sqm for MG Classic.

[Mike O'Pray]

Thanks, Matt. I am veering off the topic to some extent now but I think that if the only way to see a picture from a digital file was to digitally print and the only way to see a picture from a negative was a darkroom print then I do wonder if digital would ever have caught on.

As I said, my problem stems from starting analogue during a kind of "golden era" where for a few years I actually saw my costs go down and when they went up it wasn't gradual but was a kind of short sharp shock as they say which has had a traumatising effect

Mike