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  #1  
Old 18th May 2016, 06:09 PM
MikeHeller MikeHeller is online now
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Default Xtol Longevity

One of the reasons for using Xtol (which I use 1+1 dilution and discard) is its supposed longevity especially as it is only available to make 5l stock.
I have now had further experience of this longevity. I keep the stock solution in 2½ l, 1l and 500ml bottles as appropriate with a squirt of Tetenal Protectan.
I previously reported (May 2014) the formation of a slight fluffy precipitate (also found by others) but carried on using it after filtration. No further appearance of this precipitate subsequently reappeared in the batch.
Anyway, I have been using a batch of Xtol, at 1+1 dilution, made up in December 2014 and presumably filtered at some point with no problems until today (May 2016). I noticed that the stock had a very slight straw colouration but carried on regardless. The film developed was very thin and may possibly be unprintable. I had previously developed a film with no problem a month ago. I chucked the rest of the stock in the bottles and determined that perhaps I should go back to using ID11 which is available in smaller quantities and forego the cost advantages as I had clearly plummed the lifespan of the batch and do not use sufficient film to justify it.
However, I have now found another 500ml bottle from the same batch which does not show the slight colouration. Do I use this or chuck it? The latter, I think!! - I don't like losing pictures which are, of course, the best I have ever taken and irreplaceable!!
Mike

Last edited by MikeHeller; 18th May 2016 at 06:15 PM. Reason: Aded a bit
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  #2  
Old 18th May 2016, 06:45 PM
Lostlabours Lostlabours is online now
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If you like Xtol stick with it. I'd suggest using it replenished though as it's far more economic and the results are excellent.

I began using replenished developers when i was about 16, initially Microphen then ID-11 and later Adox Borax MQ. When Xtol was released I switched to it and would split it into 2.5 litres working solution the other 2.5 litres as replenisher. I only stopped using it because I began living abroad in 2006, I would use what I had left on trips back to the UK.

You need to be careful after about a year, it can last longer but can also collapse, as will ID-11/D76 and Microphen etc,

Ian
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Old 18th May 2016, 09:23 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Mike, I'd ditch the straw coloured Xtol. Now I have seen your post I regret not mentioning this earlier. I mixed up 5L of Xtol in Sept 2013 into two 3 litre winebags. I was using both bags in a slightly haphazard alternate fashion for over 18 months but latterly was checking the potency each time by developing a film leader before a film. It must have been sometime in November 2015 when I was about to develop a film that I noticed that one bag was giving me a straw coloured liquid and sure enough that failed to develop the leader

The other bag was still clear but nearly empty and that developed the leader and then film properly

If my experience is anything to go by 2 years full potency is possible in a winebag. The bag giving straw coloured liquid may have allowed some air to get in

Frankly 2 years may be stretching it a bit but if you have a clear coloured 500ml then I'd try it on a leader and if the leader goes black after immersion for about the same developing time as the film needs then I'd used it.

The word "black" can cover a multitude of sins as they say but my test was to then briefly fix and wash the leader then hold it up to a clear 100W incandescent bulb and if I could see the wire in the bulb as no brighter than a defined orange coloured wire then I judged the developer to be usable

Needless to say if the film was vital and you feel you cannot afford to take any chances with the negs then buy a new packet

Mike
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Old 18th May 2016, 10:42 PM
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My 1.6 litre bottle of replenished Xtol is 9 years old and has done hundreds of films. Replenishment rate is 90ml per film and the replenisher is a 5 litre batch made up and stored as 5 full-to-the-top one litre bottles.

To minimise oxidation I use oxygen-free water made by boiling an electric jug and leaving the contents to cool overnight. A plunger type mixer instead of a stirrer also minimises air entrainment.

So far (fingers crossed) no failures; just beautiful consistent developing at about 30 cents a roll.
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Old 19th May 2016, 06:24 AM
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I have had recent similar problems with this developer. I decided to try the developer out after reading Mike's experiences on here and bought 2 x 5 litres pack in January. I mixed one and stored it in 2 x 2.5 litre containers, one full to the brim and the other with the residue. I have been using the part full one since I mixed the pack in January with no problems. Because of work being done on the house I have not developed a film for about 3 weeks or so and it was fine last time I used it. Last week I developed a film and not having experience with this developer I used it even though it was a definite pale yellow colour. The film was totally underdeveloped with the images only just visible, definitely not printable. The leader is a very pale barely visible grey. I tried this developer because of its supposed longevity. Is it normal for a batch less than 3 - 4 months old to die as quickly as this?

I have not used this developer for a long time as I was one of the unfortunate ones who suffered sudden death with the 1 litre packs. I have checked the brim full container and that developer is still clear so I will now decant it into smaller bottles. Looks like I will be going back to ID11 as that seems to last forever even in part full bottles.

Bill
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Old 19th May 2016, 11:43 AM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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The problem here, Bill is that probably no single user of Xtol stored in winebags has done it enough times to say that his experience is statistically significant to be able to say that this means that winebags will definitely preserve Xtol for say over 12 months or longer.

However I have mixed up a few packets of 5L over probably 7-9 years and can say that I have never experienced your issue.3-4 months is a very short time in which to see this problem

I suspect that air may have entered somehow but the only way I can see this happening is if in squeezing the bag before inserting the dispenser or in my case re-inserting the dispenser, the liquid was allowed to drop from the dispenser opening and air then entered.

I found it quite a juggling act to keep the liquid up to the brim by squeezing with one had while inserting the dispenser with the other.

If you accidentally pull the opening of the bag to meet the dispenser rather pushing the dispenser down to meet the liquid then an air gap is a possibility.

Mike
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Old 19th May 2016, 12:17 PM
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Hi Mike,

I was not using wine bags but the containers that the distilled water came in that I used to mix the developer. As I said one container is full to the brim but the other was about 3/4 full at the time of mixing. At the time it died I probably had about 3/4 of a litre left in a 2.5 litre container. This is probablely the problem and the subsequent short time. Also the containers are white and not light proof. Although they are in a cupboard it is not lightproof so could light also affect the developer?

Bill
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Old 19th May 2016, 01:51 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Sorry Bill, I had read your comment on "my experience" and the word "containers" and wrongly assumed that you were referring to winebags.

I think that air is almost certainly the cause and frankly the only way I know of excluding air is either decanting into say 250ml bottles which are not permeable, filling to the absolute brim as in having an overspill when the top of the bottle is screwed on, then using all the contents at once when opened or carefully filling winebags which collapse as the liquid is used preventing any ingress of air

I have great faith in winebags as you will have gathered. Even so there may be a case for not using the same bag over and over again in case of eventual leaks around the dispenser which has to be extracted and re-inserted each time for a re-fill or even the risk of eventual wear and tear of the bag but I have successfully used a winebag and dispenser twice.

By that stage I have emptied another "wine" winebag into my stomach so a new bag is available.

While we are on the subject of winebags I have noted that unfortunately in my usual wine stockist( Aldi) its only winebag has had the dispenser changed and now it is near impossible to free it from the bag. This probably makes it a safer bag from Aldi's point of view for holding wine but rather ruins Aldi wineboxes as a future source

I cannot say if other supermarkets such as ASDA, Sainsbury's Tesco etc still use the older variety of dispenser.

However if worse comes to the worst then there is always the polypin new bags mentioned here on FADU in an earlier thread which I assume do have the extractable dispensers as they haven't had any liquid in them in the first place

Mike
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Old 19th May 2016, 02:44 PM
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More likely my error Mike. I was more referring to the overall experience using the developer not just the storage. I have looked at Polypins after reading your comments but unless the overall experience, such as grain, tonality and ease of use, is much better than using ID11 then it is probably not worth the risk of it dying suddenly.

Anyway I will use up what I have and re-assess when that is gone.

Thanks for your help.

Bill
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Old 20th May 2016, 11:22 AM
MikeHeller MikeHeller is online now
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It is good to hear others' experience of this 'problem'. I have never thought of using the leader for testing the developer although I use it for checking fixer. Must try it on the remaining 500 ml and may find it still useable - I am stingey and hate throwing chemicals out while they are useable. Thanks for the tip, Mike.

I have managed to print a contact sheet from the affected film - at Gr. 5!! - so that all is not lost and I have a record of the occasions. Might try some enlargements in due course when I have had a proper look at them.

I am not familiar with using 'replenished' developer technique in terms of the effect on development times or other advantages/disadvantages. I have tended to favour one shot developers.
Mike

Last edited by MikeHeller; 20th May 2016 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Corrections
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