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  #11  
Old 27th February 2022, 03:54 PM
PeteK PeteK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
I think the very faint numbers may be/allegedly be as a result of the infamous problem that Kodak had and depending on whose post it is on Photrio, it was a problem for Ilford as well. That problem being the backing paper imprinting the number on the negative

It would seem that the answer was to make the printed numbers much fainter

Bottom line on it appears to be that unless and until Ilford and Kodak can be sure of the backing paper and ink there is little chance of any improvement in this light printing

Frankly I had the problem once on an XP2 Plus 120 on my Agfa Isollete when I kept winding the film through wondering why there were no numbers - there actually were but in brightish light I couldn't see them

A place in Northampton called Skears Photographic was kind enough to re-roll the film for me. From then on I have always gone into as shady a place I can find when winding on

Mike
I am going to be re-rolling mine in my dark bag. I am also going to have a go at cleaning the red window with toothpaste. If I can get it as clean as possible I may stand an outside chance of seeing the feint numbers, with the aid of a magnifier, .... and a torch
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  #12  
Old 27th February 2022, 04:42 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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I have found that both Ilford and Kodak films are almost useless in red window cameras, Foma have stuck to their bolder print, black numbers on white background, which make it a lot easier, I have also removed the red window altogether from some of my red window cameras, I bought a Ensign 645 camera that had the window removed, and got no film fogging, as long as I covered the window with the slider cover,I have not tried keepung the window open all the time, but some red windows are darker than others, Ensign are a case in point, their red windows are much darker than many old German folders, sor after my experiance with the Ensign 645 I trid the 820 and so far no light leaks to the film, so I conclude that after my experiments that having the red in the red window isn't needed, and it makes it so much easier with out the red, Ihave removed the red is all my ensignd and some of my German cameras, so far so good, and I mainly use Fomapan 400, sometime's 200,
Richard
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  #13  
Old 27th February 2022, 05:50 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Richard I was a bit confused when reading your post. If the red window is removed on those camera that rely on it for the correct winding-on operation how do you now do it?

I'd have no idea what to do in the case of my Agfa Isolette I if there was no red window. My red window has the metal silver-coloured slider as well which I always use the instant I have seen the correct number appear in the window and that always seemed to work OK but I admit my last use of the Agfa was several years ago and may have preceded the backing paper problem

Thanks

Mike
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  #14  
Old 27th February 2022, 06:36 PM
Richard Gould Richard Gould is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O'Pray View Post
Richard I was a bit confused when reading your post. If the red window is removed on those camera that rely on it for the correct winding-on operation how do you now do it?

I'd have no idea what to do in the case of my Agfa Isolette I if there was no red window. My red window has the metal silver-coloured slider as well which I always use the instant I have seen the correct number appear in the window and that always seemed to work OK but I admit my last use of the Agfa was several years ago and may have preceded the backing paper problem

Thanks

Mike
Mike,
I use the numbers on the backing paper, with the pressure on the backing paper from the pressure plate it seems to keep the light from the film so all I do is open the shield, wind the film to the next exposure, as if the red window was there, then close the shutter, I always thought that losing the red from the window would cause fogging, but when you think about it, pan film is all colours, so light though the red window shoukd even slightly fog the film, especialy if, like me, you keept forgetting to close the shield, but it never did, then I bought a Ensign 645 with no red in the window, cursed, then thought better try a film or 2, only way was using the window minus the red gell to wind the film, and film was fine, no sign of fogging, so I removed the gel from my 820, if it didn't work I could always put some ruby lith gel back, but again, fine, so I tried with a German in this case a Franka, agin re gel not needed, just make sure you always close the shield after winding on, and it does make it easier to use, and if selling the camera easy enough to put a red window back, so just remove the gel and use the camera as normal, works for me in several cameras,
Richard
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  #15  
Old 27th February 2022, 06:59 PM
Mike O'Pray Mike O'Pray is offline
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Thanks Richard. It is completely clear to me now what you meant now. I was assuming, wrongly, as is now clear and was clear in fact had I read your post more carefully that getting rid of the red window did not involve somehow blocking the whole window space permanently. An unwarranted assumption on my part

I have no idea if removal of the red window would affect my Agfa Isolette or not but I'll keep it there just in case despite it adding to the difficulty of seeing the numbers

Mike
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  #16  
Old 27th February 2022, 07:30 PM
snusmumriken snusmumriken is offline
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I'm not a MF guy, but I do know this problem has been around for a while. In the 1960s, my Granny always had a piece of sticking plaster over the window of her Kodak folder. It had to be there to prevent the film being spoiled. When it was peeled back, we could generally see the arrows leading up to the number, but could rarely tell which number it was when it arrived.
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  #17  
Old 28th February 2022, 08:42 AM
Paulographic Paulographic is offline
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I have an old Ikoflex which requires the red window for the first frame only, after that you carefully wind on to numbers in a small aperture beside the knob. Ilford 120 films have faint grey numbers and printed as dots rather than block letters. Kodak had bold numbers.
I need reading glasses and that in the past was adequate, now I'd use a loupe or magnifying glass.
If the window has no built in cover I use a piece of black tape.
Only once have I had the frame number imprinted on the neg.
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  #18  
Old 28th February 2022, 10:09 AM
DavidMB DavidMB is offline
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Default Illuminating red window numbers

Where possible I use the built in shield or a bit of black insulating tape to reduce chance of fogging through red window when I'm not winding on. Many modern films have less contrasty numbering to help prevent chemical reaction between emulsion surface and the backing paper. To aid visibility of the numbers I have on my keyring a mini red LED flash light (as used by astronomers to read settings on telescopes without affecting night vision) to illuminate the window. This helps a lot!
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  #19  
Old 28th February 2022, 12:50 PM
Terry S Terry S is offline
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I mentioned it on some thread many moons ago, but it is relevant again, so...

When I got my first Holga 120, about half way through a Fuji 'professional' colour film, on a very bright sunny day, the back of the Holga fell of onto the ground. I picked it up and replaced it as quickly as I could. I expected some of the film to be fogged when I got it processed and printed, but there was none! Every frame was perfect!

So reading this thread, I can totally understand that having no red window on the back on the camera, shouldn't affect the film, but this is assuming the camera keeps the film tight in both sides rolls and on where the film will be exposed.

I may try removing the red window on one of my Holga's, as recently, I too found it hard to see the numbers on an Ilford film, but it was very sunny and maybe turning to the shade might have helped. I might look for as DavidMB mentions, a small red LED light.

Terry S
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  #20  
Old 28th February 2022, 05:53 PM
Svend Svend is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteK View Post
I am going to be re-rolling mine in my dark bag. I am also going to have a go at cleaning the red window with toothpaste. If I can get it as clean as possible I may stand an outside chance of seeing the feint numbers, with the aid of a magnifier, .... and a torch

Pete - join the Red Window Camera Frustrated User's Club

I've had a number of old folders with red windows, and seeing the numbers has certainly been challenging on a few of them, esp. in low light. I've taken to carrying a little pocket magnifier with built-in LED light whenever I shoot with one of these cameras. Helps a lot.

I have something like this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/EasY-Magnif...NsaWNrPXRydWU=


One of my cameras was so bad that I seriously contemplated cutting the red window out entirely. I polled the group here to see if it was OK to do that, and it was pretty much agreed all around that it was not the best idea. There is a long thread on that topic here:
http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.or...ad.php?t=10993
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Last edited by Svend; 28th February 2022 at 06:05 PM.
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